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Galileo System To Include Jamming Capability

Hemos posted more than 10 years ago | from the wham-you-hear-nothing dept.

United States 1026

CharonX writes "The Galileo project, an european alternative to the US based (and controlled) GPS system, recieved a severe setback today. Under US pressure the EU has agreed to use transmission frequencies that could be easily disturbed or completely jammed by the US military. Since one of Galileo's main advantages had been being independent of goverment or military control, this is a severe setback. Read more here on Heise.de (German - ya might want to use the fish)" Some of the background on this had NATO being unhappy with some of the provisions of it as well - at the least military structure.

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YEAH (-1)

Dikky (613893) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598633)

Captain's Log: My Anus is too Fucking Tight

One day Captain Kirk was maiming his cock with a horseshoe when suddenly Mr. Spock ran up to him and shoved his pointy ear up his butt. "What is this for!" the fag captain said. "FAGS FOR YOU AALL!L!!!" the ancient alien howled as suddenly he farted and Captain Kirk twirled around in a daze and his foreskin twisted and his kidney stones turned into wooden beads. He pulled out his pistol and shot lasers at his chastity belt and suddenly he hurdled his dick into Captain Kirk"s bellybutton and it tore his flesh while Spock fucked his stomach. Kirk hollered out loud and Mr. Spock threw his shoes to the floor and wrinkled his penis until Kirk bellowed out to make it stop. A maelstom of shit whizzed around the ship and suddenly a giant fag appeared out side and the U.S.S. Enterprise went up his butt. "Oh what the hell have you gotten us into NOW!" Captain Kirk said as he oozed a condom back on his dick and put his panties back on. "OOH!H!!!!!!" Mr. Spock started fucking him again and shoved his phazer up his butt. He dissolved his glands and exploded his turds and finally a queer klingon hurdled through the door and smashed Kirk with his butt hairs. A maniac sucked his dick and suddenly Mr. Spock fagged Kirk so hard that his intestines burst open and he died.

Article is flamebait (-1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598636)

Believe me, if we wanted to jam Galileo, there's not much the EU could do to stop us. They don't have to make it easy (and I doubt they would if we asked.)

Re:Article is flamebait (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598649)

do I want them to try and stop us w/sactions? No... Do I think that this article is placing a lot of spin and blame on the US, yes.

Well obviously the US (4, Insightful)

goldcd (587052) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598710)

could do a lot 'if they wanted to'. They could nuke Europe if they wanted to - it's not could to happen, but they could.
There is a very large difference between the EU allowing the US to jam and the US jamming against the wishes of the EU. We in Europe are getting quite uppity with the US, especially their foreign policy and breaking our new toy would not be looked on kindly.
The EU collectively has a lot of clout with the US, for example the import tariffs imposed on steel imported to the US are going to be removed due to pressure brought by Europe. The dollar is currently at an all time low against the Euro and the lower it gets the more influence we have.

Re:Well obviously the US (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598751)

The dollar is currently at an all time low against the Euro and the lower it gets the more influence we have.


I take it they don't have economics classes in Europe?

Re:Well obviously the US (1)

bigdisk (183176) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598863)

I take it they don't have economics classes in Europe?

No history lessons either. The Euro is at the same price it was introduced at, no higher. It's roughly like saying pets.com stock is at an all time high.

Basically retarded.

Re:Well obviously the US (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598756)

Tariffs are being removed because of economic pressure throughout the world, not just Europe. Get over yourself.

If you count being able to buy more goodies from the US as influence, then yeah, the lower dollar helps. However, your exports are getting screwed. Cheers.

The EU doesn't hold much sway, except in Europe. Shutup, wanker.

Re:Well obviously the US (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598757)

The steel tariffs are being removed because they violate international trade rules and were ruled as such. It has nothing to do with clout.

Re:Well obviously the US (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598792)

Eh? Lower dollar will increase US exports you retard. Of course, we know from Europe's retarded 'leadership' and nonexistent GDP growth that they've a dearth of economists.

Re:Well obviously the US (4, Informative)

arcanumas (646807) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598885)

Lower dollar will increase US exports you retard

Currently the US imports much more than it exports. Having the dollar devaluate in relation to the Euro it means you will have to pay more to get the same amount of imports.
So it will have a positive effect of making American products more competitive as far as price is concerned and therefore increase exports in the long run.

In other words you make the Dollar devaluation sound like it is most certainly a good thing. It depends on the situation, and the current US situation tells us that for now it is a BAD thing.

NOT obviously the US (3, Insightful)

StandardCell (589682) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598882)

First off, you focus on the US, but the fact of the matter is anyone - from anarchists to terrorists to civil disobedience organizers - can choose to jam BOTH the GPS system AND Galileo.

Then you mention how much clout the EU has with the US now. Unfortunately, all commodities are still traded in US dollars and probably will be for the foreseeable future. The high Euro has also significantly hurt European exports and all of this in the midst of increasing European deficits contrary to EU constitution by Germany and France recently. All this in the midst of rampant inflation like 30% increases in the cost of damned table salt per year in Greece last year, for example, and the UK being resistant to joining and giving up the pound. In fact, Europe's economy is teetering on stagflation at this point. The higher the Euro becomes the more expensive European exports become and the more European countries get hurt.

The article is pretty heavily laden with propaganda, and your post skims over too many details. However, just like the meteoric rise of the Nasdaq and Dow three years ago, the meteoric rise of the Euro of over 20% in the span of eight to ten months indicates something - volatility, not strength.

Re:Article is flamebait (1)

madprof (4723) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598736)

The US could shoot the entire system out of the skies if it wanted. That doesn't make it responsible, amenable to good relations or the best policy.
You'd hope that democratic nations would behave in a sensible way towards each other.

Re:Article is flamebait (1)

Rich0 (548339) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598794)

Precisely why the EU compromised on the matter.

If they put the system in orbit and the only way to deny its use to an enemy were to shoot it out of the skies, then that would be what would happen.

If you can selectively degrade it simply by flipping a switch that give the EU a bargaining chip in negotiations with the US (ie, we can make this whole galileo-jamming bit real easy for you if you only change policy xyz).

If you can jam it from the ground then at least the US has a more painful solution if it wants to go it alone which does necessitate shotting the satelites out of the sky.

Basically, by giving in to the USA, they can still use the system for the civilian purposes it was designed for, but at the same time they retain the option of denying it to an enemy later.

First Slackware and Bach post! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598639)

Slackware rules.

So does Bach.

Plus ca change!

Rough Translation by me :) (5, Informative)

real-q (54985) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598640)

Galileo under US-Control

The argument, the european satellite navigation system Gallileo will make the europeans independent from the USA, seems to tumble. Tagesschau [one of the most serious Newsmagazines in Germany] reports, US military forces may disturb or completely jam the Galileo signal without furhter notice, similar to what they are doing already with the GPS-Signals in critical times.

But that is not enough for the americans. They demand to reduce the quality ofthe unencrypted Galileo signal, which the System sends in normal operation. If the USA will succeed with its demands, one of the main arguments for the european Navigationsystem - it's much higher precision compared to GPS - would fall. The final decision talks are set for january in Washington D.C.

About four billion Euro will the Galilep project cost and it will start in the year 2008. About 30 satellites are required for the system. China and India also want to take part in financing the project with togehter 500 million euro.

Re:Rough Translation by me :) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598732)

Golly, guys, what happened to compromise and multilateralism? I thought that was a good thing, or is that only when the US has to compromise?

Who on earth would want to stand in the way of a 1M accurate GPS type system available to terrorists, militaries, and civilians alike? I'm sure there's nobody in Europe having second thoughts about this either. It's all the mean, nasty, evil US.

Maybe they can just modify the GPS jamming equipment Russia provided Iraq with.

Re:Rough Translation by me :) (1)

randyest (589159) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598850)

Thanks! I was trying to figure out what it means to turn out "in the wanken" (from the Babelfish translation):

The argument, the European satellite navigation system Galileo makes the Europeans independent of the USA, seems in the wanken to turn out.

Now I know it means "to tumble". I think I prefer to say "turns out in the wanken".

Only one man would dare give me the raspberry... (4, Funny)

Enzondio (110173) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598646)

RADAR TECH.: I'm having trouble with the radar, sir.

HELMET: What's wrong with it?

RADAR TECH.: I've lost the bleeps, I've the lost the sweeps, and I've lost the creeps.

HELMET: The what?

SANDURZ: The what?

HELMET: And the what?

RADAR TECH.: You know. The bleeps, the sweeps, and the creeps.

HELMET: That's not all he's lost.

RADAR TECH.: Sir. The radar, sir. It appears to be... jammed.

HELMET: Jammed? Raspberry. There's only one man who would dare give me the raspberry. Lone Starr!

Unbelievable... (3, Insightful)

mOoZik (698544) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598654)

This defeats the whole point of an independent system. The U.S. may be the superpower at this time, but this doesn't mean they should have such a strong hand in these decisions. If such a system eventually gets built and many years down the road the U.S. decides to invade a country which uses the Galileo system for its weaponry, what's to keep the U.S. from jamming and disabling their systems for a clean sweep? In a word, this is unfair. Other states should have the capabilities which the United States takes for granted. Very disappointed in my country.

Life sucks, wear a helmet. (1, Offtopic)

FatSean (18753) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598681)

Everything should be 'fair' huh? Christ....

Re:Unbelievable... (3, Informative)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598685)

i wonder though.. the financing of this has to shake somewhat now though, since the whole point of making the system kind of falls now, i don't see any point why china for example would like to contribute at all now.

Re:Unbelievable... (1)

AllUsernamesAreGone (688381) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598789)

Simple - so they don't have to rely on an American system, and its cheaper than putting their own up.

Re:Unbelievable... (2, Insightful)

twofidyKidd (615722) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598828)

It's interesting that you take notice of the financing for this project. I sometimes wonder if this isn't just another attempt by the U.S. to undermine the value of the EURO against the US Dollar. They're doing it in Iraq with OPEC, and they see no reason to stop there.

Re:Unbelievable... (4, Interesting)

Dun Malg (230075) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598725)

down the road the U.S. decides to invade a country which uses the Galileo system for its weaponry, what's to keep the U.S. from jamming and disabling their systems for a clean sweep? In a word, this is unfair.

You're worried about one side having an unfair advantage in war? That's just weird, man. There's no "fairness" in war. The US dictating to the EU how their nav sats should work, that's pretty lame. But the EU will be even more lame if they knuckle under.

Re:Unbelievable... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598730)

"Other states should have the capabilities which the United States takes for granted."

let them build them then. much as you may not like it, might makes right. its the way its always been, its the way its always going to be. i dont like it either, but what are you gonna do?

Re:Unbelievable... (2, Insightful)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598746)

I agree. Other countries should have the capabilities that we have... so build them! Of course we pressured them to make their system weak! It's like us telling you to make your governments encryption systems vulnerable to we can read your official's email...

what blows my mind is that countries actually give in and do this! Can't another country simply give us the finger once and a while and do their own god damned thing without bitching about us and our international policys?

Re:Unbelievable... (1)

dumeinst (664891) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598851)

Giving the US the finger this day in age would probably result in economic suicide, or a least a serious maiming

Already in control (1)

morcego (260031) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598877)

Of course we pressured them to make their system weak!
what blows my mind is that countries actually give in and do this!

I think these statements summarize the whole point, doesn't it ? After all, if the other countries do give in, the USA is already in control.

Re:Unbelievable... (3, Insightful)

praksys (246544) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598785)

If such a system eventually gets built and many years down the road the U.S. decides to invade a country which uses the Galileo system for its weaponry, what's to keep the U.S. from jamming and disabling their systems for a clean sweep?

What's to keep them from just trashing the whole system [af.mil] ? The alternative to jamming is destruction.

Re:Unbelievable... (1)

Naito (667851) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598790)

reminder "All's fair in love and war"

Not only that, (1)

blankinthefill (665181) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598804)

but it goes against US law as well. This is a decidedly monopolistic move, one that will weaken a rival solution. Didn't we just have a big case of Microsoft doing the same thing?!? And anyways, the system is being developed outside of American control or influence. If this was a corporate system, we would not have the right to change it, so why should we be able to interfere now? This administration really gets on my nerves.

Re:Unbelievable... (1)

Zocalo (252965) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598817)

This whole project has been one massive conflict of interest almost from day one, and it's not as simple as US vs EU either. I'm sure that while the military in NATO countries were arguing for the override functions, their countryfolk in the EU offices were arguing against it. Just look at all the confusion over the proposed EU Peace Keeping Force (or whatever it's called this week) to see how bad it can get.

Besides, just how much of a tactical benefit does a GPS system accurate to 1m instead of 10m, or 100m give you anyway? If you have access to the US arsenal of smartbombs and laser guided targetting systems, maybe enough to make a difference. If your weapons of choice are the RPG ambush, hijaaked airliner, and suicide bomber however I don't think having pinpoint accuracy really makes any difference. At a pinch, I suppose you could justify it by saying that it negates its use to accurately locate buried munition supplies, but that's about it.

Remind me how the European Union was going to be an independant entity equal to the United States again? Very disappointing!

Re:Unbelievable... (1)

Performer Guy (69820) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598855)

This is the whole point of the ability to Jam. It is inevitable that a U.S. adversary would use Galileo just as they use GPS now. It is denied them with GPS and will hopefully be denied them with Galileo. I'm really not sure this jamming thing is all it's cracked up to be. It sounds like the differing frequencies will make jamming possible (because the U.S. won't step on it's own toes) and it's being blown out of proportion and misrepresented as being designed to be jammed easily.

I'm more concerned about the degradation in accuracy. I mean really, we're talking meter accuracy vs a few meters accuracy. What possible strategic difference could this make? Yet because of the foolish paranoia of a few in uniform thousands of civilian applications are rendered useless while no strategic advantage is gained that I can see.

If this European system doesn't offer more accuracy then it should be scrapped. There is no point to it beyond pure egotism.

Re:Unbelievable... (1, Insightful)

nehril (115874) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598865)

and many years down the road the U.S. decides to invade a country which uses the Galileo

bingo, you have exactly identified the reason for this "demand." The purpose of the US is not to be nice, or fair, but act as a sovereign nation that will do whatever it takes to gain every advantage for itself. (this is why US only pretends to go along with the UN, until it no longer serves their purposes).

in international affairs, there are no good guys. there is no "fair." everyone acts in their own best interest to the maximum extent possible. Don't try to look at these things from the "we're nice guys, sure we will let you build electronic systems that reduce our military advantage" perspective, you will be disappointed.

I'm not saying I agree or like this. But reread today's international news section of your local paper. it may seem different to you now.

The Register has article in English... (4, Informative)

JohnGrahamCumming (684871) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598658)

Here [theregister.co.uk]

John.

Re:The Register has article in English... (1)

fenix down (206580) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598694)

Oh, so Galileo isn't actually "in the wanken"? I was wondering if that was righty or lefty wanken, and, indeed, why they had even installed wanken capabilities in the first place.

Ha Ha! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598660)

Kiss my fat american Ass!

Great link hot chick-NOT Goatse! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598663)

http://rolltidebama.com/bamaarkpics/img0040.jpg

Re:Great link hot chick-NOT Goatse! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598693)

No...that's definately NOT goatse, alright.

There are worse things than goatse out there, though.

Re:Great link hot chick-NOT Goatse! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598862)

Man, those cheerleaders have some THICK thighs. They need to get their heads out of the trough and exercise some more.

It's the "Freshman 15" you're supposed to gain, girls, not the "Freshman 40." Yeesh.

What can I say... (2, Interesting)

WetCat (558132) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598670)

Use GLONASS instead...
Or a combination of GLONASS & GPS

thats the plan (1)

zorgaliscious (619362) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598873)

it probably will... trust me ;-)

Cool (-1, Offtopic)

sharkey (16670) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598673)

Bob Marley in space!

Setbacj? Depends on your POV, I guess... (2, Insightful)

buffy (8100) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598684)

...
Since one of Galileo's main advantages had been being independent of goverment or military control, this is a severe setback.
...

I think the US Gov't & Military (and her allies, too, probably) consider this a great advancement of their goals. So...I guess it all depends on your point-of-view! ;)

-buf

Re:Setbacj? Depends on your POV, I guess... (2, Insightful)

lovebyte (81275) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598734)

I think the US Gov't & Military (and her allies, too, probably) consider this a great advancement of their goals.

Most allies of the USA are taking part in the Galileo system!
But also most allies of the USA are getting scared of the military control of the USA.

Big shame (3, Insightful)

sosume (680416) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598686)

Why do I still pay taxes? I could as well pay directly to the US Government since they control our defense. Bah. Shame on the EU for letting the US walk straight over them!!!! .. what if the US get caught by a coup d'etat? Not as unlikely as many think.. they will immediately control the EU as well.

A dark day for Europe, this is.

Re:Big shame (1)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598782)

If there was a coup here in the US, I personally know at least 5 people with some pretty powerful weaponry that would be pretty pissed off...

Re:Big shame (0)

fenix down (206580) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598858)

That's nice.

Re:Big shame (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598861)

Yeah right, you just go wave that Glock 9mm in front of a M1A2, conscription is the only way to guarantee that military does not spring out of control.

Re:Big shame (1, Insightful)

AllUsernamesAreGone (688381) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598824)

"what if the US get caught by a coup d'etat?"

You mean they haven't? Quite a few people I know, including several Americans, view Bush's presidency as nothing more than an illegal coup.

Re:Big shame (1)

Nostrada (208820) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598825)

Uh, when you look at the last election in the US you wonder if they HAD already a coup d'etat. At least Michael Moore thinks so. (Stupid White Man)

Re:Big shame (2, Informative)

Performer Guy (69820) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598883)

Sigh, nobody has walked over anyone. Geeze keep your hair on. You don't even know the facts beyone some rant on /. typical, get all hot & bothered over propaganda.

This is a good thing (4, Insightful)

shed (68365) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598688)

I'm sure this sounds like flame bait, but as someone has already pointed out the article itself constitutes a tasty treat for the consumption of flame.

The question here is why would you not want the military to be able to jam a GPS system? I'd like to see some cogent thought in that direction, rather than froth and hand wringing without substantiation.

Let me give one positive example. North Korea launches a galileo guided missle toward new york. The US military disables it. Any others?

Re:This is a good thing (2, Insightful)

TheDredd (529506) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598758)

Any others?

Sure the US jams Galileo because, some European company using Galileo competes with some US company using GPS

Re:This is a good thing (1)

DjReagan (143826) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598760)

The more accurate question is "why would you not want a *foreign* military to be able to jam a GPS system?"

Its all good and well assuming the EU and USA have similar goals and direction. But that is not always going to happen. There will be times in the future when Europe and America don't see eye to eye on things, and then the EU will be regretting decisions like this, and America will be laughing its head off.

Re:This is a good thing (4, Insightful)

arkanes (521690) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598762)

Your argument is easily extended to allowing the military complete control over any and all aspects of life. Care to provide anything a bit more substantial?

I'll give you a start: North Korea launches an inertially guided missile toward New York.

I'll take a step farther and provide a realistic answer to your flaimbait: The "jamming" they're talking about doesn't effect 1 reciever. It affects an entire area, or, in the case of GPS, it affects the entire system. There's a real use for an accurate positioning system that can't be disabled on a whim - this is a real issue in the US. People want to use GPS for accurate positioning, but you can't rely on it. There was a great deal of concern during the invaision of Afghanistan (and again during the invasion of Iraq) over this, because there were systems in place that relied on accurate GPS (although they shouldn't) and they would fail if it was disabled. A civilian positioning sytem outside of military control wouldn't have this drawback.

US Military, not EU (5, Insightful)

arevos (659374) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598764)

Yes, except this would give the US Military capabilities over Gallieo, not the EU. Would the US agree to something similar? If the US should be able to jam the EU system, then surely it's perfectly fair for the EU to jam the US GPS system.

I wouldn't mind this provision as much, if the EU had the same rights as the US in this matter. In short, if the US Military wants the ability to shut off the EU's feed, then the EU member countries should have the ability to shut off the US feed. And how likely is it that the US would give France or Germany the ability to arbietarily decide to block their system?

Re:This is a good thing (2, Insightful)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598768)

Well, remove the countries from the equation if you don't want the above to be considered flamebait.

The entire point of a country having Nuclear weapons is to act as a deterrent against invasion or attack. If country A knows country B's WMD are blockable, country A will have less of an issue invading country B.

The argument for Nuclear weapons is, and has been since the 1950s, that they'll never be need to be used. Any country that ever uses them will be performing its last act on Earth.

Re:This is a good thing (1)

BorgDrone (64343) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598771)

There's no problem with (partly) shutting down the system if required.

The point is, we pay for it, so we should have the finger on the shutdown button, not the US.

Re:This is a good thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598799)

IIRC, the US is still screwed. This seems equivalent to shooting down the missile. The missile is basically locked into its trajectory (somewhat) after something like 2 minutes (after the main burn) due to conservation of momentum.

So, Korea just programs the missile to coast if it loses GPS. It might not have the detailed targeting, but it will still hit the US.

Re:This is a good thing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598812)

Automated farming equipment that uses Galileo suddenly finds the signal jammed, which results in millions of dollars in lost productivity.

Re:This is a good thing (1)

Molt (116343) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598820)

The question should really be 'Why should you build a GPS system with the express design that a foreign military can jam it?'.

Re:This is a good thing (1)

morcego (260031) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598826)

How about the USA lauching a GPS guided missile toward North Korea ? How about China lauching a missile toward North Korea ? Who will the all mighty USA side with ?

It's very well and good to look just to your own backyard, but the world is not USA. There are things outside, if you care to take a look.

We are no talking about USA jamming Galileo signal on USA territory. This is about USA being able to jam it ANYWERE.

Again: if the USA were going to be able to jam (or block) the Galileo signal on USA territory, then you can say it is a security measure, and a good(?) thing. But who gave USA rights to control signals on other countries ?

Please, grow up, and look outside your window.

I for one, welcome (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598696)

...a lost opportunity to have an independent European defence policy.

Defence from what? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598752)

All you do is fight amongst yourself.

Re:I for one, welcome (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598818)

Europe already has an independent defence policy: do nothing.

a stupid question... (3, Insightful)

JeanBaptiste (537955) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598698)

>the EU has agreed to use transmission frequencies that could be easily disturbed or completely jammed by the US military

if they wanted, wouldnt the US military be able to jam them pretty easily no matter what frequencies they used?

Re:a stupid question... (1)

Rich0 (548339) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598835)

Actually, GPS is pretty hard to jam - at least from the standpoing of guiding bombs and ICBMs - which is what the USA is mainly worried about.

All you need to do is design an antenna which selectively receives signals coming from the sky - any ground-based jammer would be at an immediate disadvantage. Also - the jammers would only work fairly close to the ground, the bomb would still fall pretty close to its target.

Re:a stupid question... (2, Informative)

niceandsunny (665663) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598853)

Yes, but they would be jamming their own system as well because Galileo was going to use the same frequencies as GPS. As the article points out, however, the EU was "persuaded" to use different frequencies to make it possible for the U.S. to disable Galileo.

Sharing frequencies wouldn't have caused GPS and Galileo to interfere because Galileo was supposed to use a clever way of superimposing signals.

Re:a stupid question... (2, Insightful)

misterpies (632880) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598886)

>>if they wanted, wouldnt the US military be able to jam them pretty easily no matter what frequencies they used?

no, because if you RTFA you'll notice that originally Galileo was to broadcast on the same frequency as GPS. That would mean that the US could not jam Galileo without also jamming GPS. By persuading Galileo to use a different frequency, the US will be able to jam its systems without affecting Galileo. (Though presumably it also means that people using Galileo will be able to jam GPS as well.)

I AM ON TEH SPOKE!!!!!!!!!! (-1)

Greased_Yoda (724757) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598701)

GO SCO/LUNIX!

Question?? (2, Insightful)

TheDredd (529506) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598704)

Would that mean you would be better of using GPS, because the US would be jamming Galileo out into Oblivion, because it competes with GPS???

I don't see the point of Galileo anymore if it falls under US control, we already have that

Jamming? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598706)

Cool I've never jammed with a satellite before - I'll be over with my bass and keyboard in 10 minutes.

Agreed to it? The Reg seems to say different. (4, Informative)

arevos (659374) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598709)

The Register [theregister.co.uk] just says that: "Talks are underway between the US and the European Union". Nothing yet seems to be agreed or finalised.

Do we know if anything definite has been decided yet? I can't see the EU caving in that easily (though I may be wrong).

Surprising (4, Funny)

sevensharpnine (231974) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598720)

I knew the Galileo project would run into trouble, but I honestly thought it would be the Catholics causing it.

I'm a Conservative! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598726)

Oh, I'm a Republican
I got a small schling
I like to bomb niggahs
and make a lot o' bling

I got a bunch o' friends
in high up places
They helps me get dem
government graces.

You think I'm smart
I just know who's who
I couldn't run a fruit stand
without the red white & blue

I fancy myself
A brilliant tactician
But neither me nor m'buddies
Could even pass basic trainin'

See, I'm above all that
A fightin' and shootin'
I just say "Sic em!"
Then run the other direction

Don't need no history
Don't need no schoolin'
I got my ideology
To keep me a shootin'

Liberals! Faggots!
Commies and queers!
Socialist hippies
Full o' pussy tears!

I'll drop some crap
about Jesus the Christ
You'll buy it all
and vote for me twice

'Fact, Jesus is comin'!
Real soon, now!
So we gotta prop up Israel
That ol' sacred cow

Propaganda's m'friend
But I calls it "fact"
Even though I don't read
'Cept for Chick tracts

Facts? No! Don't need em here!
We're conservatives! We work on FEAR!
Don't like what we say?
Well FUCK YOU, bud!
We'll shove it down yer throat
and tell ya it's good!

Re:I'm a Conservative! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598793)

Conservatives work on fear, yet Dems are the ones trying to scare seniors by telling them we'll destroy their SS. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaah.

What I want to know (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598727)

is what frequencies can't be jammed by the Military? Is there some secret form of Maxwell's equations I don't know about?

Gravity Waves! (1)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598797)

If someone figured out a way of broadcasting gravity waves and recieving them without annoncing it in a sci journel, then they would be able to send signals without any fear of jamming or eavesdropping. Ofcource if you did publish, you'd get a nobel prize.

Re:What I want to know (1)

Lord Kholdan (670731) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598868)

is what frequencies can't be jammed by the Military? Is there some secret form of Maxwell's equations I don't know about?

Frequency that their own military GPS uses? Or any other frequency that's cricital to their operation? In theory they could but that'd do them more harm then good.

Unity! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598728)

I think its a high time for the European militaries start to get united to counter the US hegemony before its too late.

Angry at everyone (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598741)

The US sucks for pushing EU to do this. The EU sucks for agreeing to it. Stupid bloody politicians. Are they even elected?

Hold on here... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598754)

If GPS uses radio signals, and radio signals, by nature, are all inherently jammable... how does one possibly make it MORE or LESS jammable? It is what it is, and that is jammable. Now, reducing accuracy is something entirely different.

Re:Hold on here... (5, Insightful)

arevos (659374) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598832)

It's about permission. Sure, the US could jam the EU system, but this is about talks to give the US permission to do so. There's quite a big difference.

For instance, if the EU has a 9/11 terrorist suspect, then the US can ask them nicely to export said terrorism to the US for trial. Or the US could, without any warning, drop a military taskforce into the EU and kidnap the suspect. Obviously, the latter isn't preferable to the former.

These talks are about giving the US permission to shut down the EU system whenever it wants. That's not a good thing.

Project should be cancelled (5, Insightful)

jschrod (172610) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598772)

If the report is true, the whole project should be cancelled ASAP.

There is no reason why my tax money should be used to create a second system that is equal to an already available and (within the spec limits) working one. It's only sensible to spend the money if there is a big enough advantage.

US Control is not a "setback" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598773)

Without the ability of the United States to override in case of emergency, there's no telling what purposes such a system might serve. If that's what it takes to keep it out of the hands of Islamic terrorists then so be it. Don't blame the US, blame the fucking terrorists who created the climate.

Re:US Control is not a "setback" (0, Troll)

arevos (659374) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598871)

Without the ability for the government to arrest citizens in secret and execute them without being held accountable, there's no telling what damage terrorist could do. If that's what it takes to keep the country safe then so be it. Don't blame the US, blame the fucking terrorists who created the climate.

Naivity (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598774)

Let us not be naive; there was no other real reason for Galileo than EU money into EU industry, the massively underestimated budgets (30 billion Euros only) is a big hint on that. Just launching the 24 satellites (and that assumes NO losses) would eat up about that amount of money, and then you have ground stations, staff, development and, best of all, maintenence.

The whole thing has been presentet as being too good to be true, and guess what: it should then not be assumed to be true. The US has developend, evolved and maintained the GPS for about 30 years and it has cost a bit more than what EU has guesstimated.

Secondly it was always rather hazy just who should control Galileo and just what limitations should be in place; it was always this unclear "someone" in "the approporitate commission", which should alert anyone who didn't fall out of a tree yesterday of big corruption ahead. Those still in their diapers might be surprised of jamming capability; the rest of us should ne be.

The French have always been a big proponent but then again they have this massive penis envy with respect to the US.

I wonder (4, Interesting)

tempestdata (457317) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598775)

I wonder if the EU (or any other political/military entity) has the ability to jam US military GPS signals. If that is the case, then this only means that a balance of force exists. ie. I'll jam yours if you jam mine.

However, if the US GPS system is difficult (or impossible?) to jam.. then this is definitely a bad idea. However, the US is only doing what any bully would do. Make sure no one ever gets in a position where it wont have to take his/her/its bullying. (yes mod me down for calling the US a bully.. but frankly when the article says the US 'pressured' the EU into changing the systems specs, it really means 'bullied')

Does anyone know if the US system can be jammed? Is china working on a similar system?

Big overbearing monolithic overlordship entities (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598777)

Galileo jammed. Oh the irony.

Frequencies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598778)

Hi all,

would someone please explain why some frequencies might possibly be harder or easier to jam than others? (Which is what the article is insinuating...)

The other thing that keeps me worried about the article (or hopeful, actually) is that this was reported through only a single source, and everybody else is referring to them. If it is true (or as grave as suggested), then surely some more people would pick it up...

manual translation of Heise article (5, Informative)

Apogee (134480) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598786)

Galileo under US control

The previous argument that the European satellite navigation system Galileo would make Europeans independent from the US apparently starts to falter. As reported by the Tagesschau [tagesschau.de] (German TV news, trans. note), US armed forces can jam or artificially deteriorate the Galileo signal without consulting the Europeans, just as it is being done nowadays with GPS signals in times of crises.

But that is not sufficient for the Americans. They further demand that the unencrypted Galileo signal, which the system broadcasts during normal operation, should be artificially degraded or dampened, as well. Should the US come through with this demand, one of the major arguments for the European navigation system would fall, namely its higher precision compared to GPS. The pivotal round of negotiations for this is planned to take place in the American capital, Washington DC, in January.

The Galileo project is estimated to cost four billion Euro, and is supposed to become operational in 2008. Approximately 30 satellites are needed for the system. Recently, China and India have agreed to participate in the financing of the project with 500 million Euro combined. (uma/c't)

I'll stick with my Compass, thank you. (1)

ChaoticCoyote (195677) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598822)

I never quite understood the fascination with GPS devices; unless I'm lost in a trackless wilderness or adrift at sea, I likely know where I am. (And yes, I own a GPS unit, for geocaching games.)

At least they haven't found a way to jam a compass or sextant...

Re:I'll stick with my Compass, thank you. (1)

Comatose51 (687974) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598852)

Most people don't know how to operate a sextant. GPS interfaced with a map program makes location find very easy. We used it during our roadtrip (Geeks on roadtrips...) and navigated without any problem. We even used the program to route us around traffic jams.

Re:I'll stick with my Compass, thank you. (1)

Nostrada (208820) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598866)

... geocaching GAMES?

Addiction, my friend. Addiction. :-)

Yea who needs knowledge! (1)

siberian (14177) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598887)

It'll only keep you from killing your buddy, shooting 'Coalition' troops and removing the fog of war for the commanders on the field and back in camp.

Geocaching is great, but it ain't got nothing on the integrated systems in place for soldiers on the ground.

In related news, the EU is beginning to scale back their plans for the EU NATO competitor. They probably are starting to look at the price tag and, while it is tempting to try to emulate America's build up, their economies are even more sickly then ours and its not looking so smart anymore.

Good times ahead (1)

RPoet (20693) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598830)

... for the US jam industry. They can jam anything [angelfire.com] with that stuff.

Typical European Cry-babyism (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598837)

Big bad USA oppresses the poor beleagured Europeans. Yadda yadda yadda. They've got it so rough. I really do feel for them.

tin foil hat on. (-1)

mesmartyoudumb (471890) | more than 10 years ago | (#7598874)

Just wait until the evil us government makes all the EU citizens wear GPS RFID tags embedded in their skin..then we can track/zap you with our space-lasers.

Good! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#7598881)

Here is my attempt at analogy:

Two friends, one is staying in the others mansion. Friend one (Pete) doesn't mind, because friend two (Pierre) helps clean up around the place. Now Pete has a beautiful Porsche. Pierre is envious of both Pete's Porsche and his mansion, but he spends way too much money on food and fancy clothes to afford both. But one day, after some thought, Pierre tells Pete he's going to buy a Porsche exactly like his! Needless to say, Pete is not happy. "If you can afford a Porsche, then you can afford to live in your own damned house." Pierre is alarmed. He actually has a house in a run down section of town, but that's really only so he can pretend to be an adult. A full blown mansion (to impress the ladies) is out of the question given his food budget. So Pierre gives in, and says he's going to buy his Porsche but Pete can drive it whenever he wants.

Pete pats Pierre on the head. "Good. Now put on some gloves and help me clean out this backed up toilet, I'm knee deep in shit."
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