Microsoft Responds to IE Criticism 1244
darthcamaro writes "Looks like there was an online free-for-all on Microsoft's chat servers yesterday with Internet Explorer engineers. Several interesting things come out in the story including the fact that the IE big wig thinks that all of his engineers should have other browsers installed to see what they can do and, catch this...he thinks they're the underdog. 'I've worked at Microsoft for 14 years and I have always felt like the underdog,' said Hachamovitch. 'Maybe the road behind us looks easy, but at the time going it wasn't. I welcome the feedback today. Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.'" Reader nkodengar notes that "Microsoft has posted an article on MSDN listing everything that will be affected by the the updates to Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2. This will be particularly important to developers who use ActiveX controls, pop-up windows and file download counters in their websites..."
Microsoft are lying to us (Score:4, Insightful)
No they don't. Maybe I do, but I'm a computer expert.
My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".
There's a reason AOL is still popular with 20+ million people -- because it's easy and most computer users are idiots when it comes to technical knowledge/know-how.
I find Microsoft guility of contempt -- contempt of not upgrading their browser. They kept quoting x-million users but then saying they had a choice. No they didn't. They used what popped up when they clicked on a Web address somewhere on their computer, and they've used that default browser from Day fucking One.
Microsoft is going to be looking at major lawsuits if they don't immediately push this RC-2/SP-2 patch series out immediately. They owe it to the world and they owe it to those of us who write proprietary software that DOESN'T suck.
(P.S. GMAIL invites! I woke up this morning and saw that my other gmail account got 2 new invites, so if you reply with a funny joke about sex and befriend me, I'll give em out to my two favorite ones.)
Be Reasonable (Score:5, Insightful)
Stop, right there. (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, check the comments of people who said that doing so would INCREASE the security risks.
Now, read the comments TODAY about the security holes attributed to IE and how difficult it is for Microsoft to fix them.
This is NOT a problem of "the ignorance of their users".
This is a problem that stems from an IDIOTIC approach to security that was motivated by the desire to destroy Netscape as a company.
AND THATS KARMA, BABY! (Score:5, Funny)
It's hardly ignorant users, is it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft *are* that car manufacturer, but they're just continually saying that it's the fault of the owner, for not reading the tiny warning label printed at the back of the battery tray, only visible when you get under the bonnet with a torch.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
The point is that it a user can't expect to just sit on their ass and have someone else inform them about all their choices.
It's called personal responsibility. If there is a Ford dealership close to my house and all I ever do is buy Fords, should Ford be held liable when all my cars fall apart?
Get informed. Use your brain. Own up to the fact that you have to actually make your own choices.
Re:Why not? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
That is not a fair comparison. Windows doesn't force you to use any of Microsoft's products (with the exception of IE for WindowsUpdate).
Re:Why not? (Score:4, Insightful)
However what they do is integrate all of their products with the OS such that it becomes highly unlikely that you would exert any effort to replace those products. The Windows desktop/OS is just like viewing an ad that you see everytime your machine starts. You're more likely to use a product that you see all the time and the 'switching cost' just gets higher and higher for everyone else.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft isn't forcing you to use their dangerous browser, but they make it sufficiently hard that it's taken several years before more than a tiny fraction of the users are thinking about using something else...
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not so sure on the "Ford" analogy, but one I have may be close. I have a Volvo that has a Bose stereo. It had a POS in-dash changer that died. Talked to the dealer and they are notoriously shitty, and are constantly being replaced (for $450 for a refurb unit.) So I go looking for third party replacements. The old bose was a 5 speaker system (center in the dash.) No normal stereo supports that. Fine - I won't use the 5th. Then I find out that the bose "system" has little amps at each speaker so that means I have to replace all the speakers too! Well, this starts getting Very expensive, very invasive, etc. so I end up getting an Alpine changer with FM modulator and keeping the half-broken old bose system because of the tight integration.
This reminds me Very much of IE in Windows. Yes, I can use an alternative browser for some stuff, but the integrated IE is still there and used for other stuff I have no control over (more than just WU.)
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not a matter of being too lazy to download Firefox, it's a matter of not knowing it exists because Microsoft's marketing has conditioned them to think IE = The Internet.
This is not a bad thing in general. This is what every company's marketing department dreams of: making their product synonomous with the service. Kleenex and Band-Aid are both other companies that have done this successfully.
Why do users equate IE with the Internet? Where did Microsoft go wrong here? What were they supposed to do? Not include a browser with the OS? Have links to competing browsers on the desktop?
I don't think the number of IE-only sites are the reason for Microsoft's browser dominance. They are the result of them.
IE is a fast and effective browser that for a time was the best available. Now users are starting to realize that it is no longer the best and hasn't been for some time now. Consumers use whatever is the best for them until something better for them comes a long.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think the number of IE-only sites are the reason for Microsoft's browser dominance. They are the result of them.
Neither one of those explanations tells the whole story. In reality it's a recursive circle. IE-only sites exist because IE is popular because IE-only sites exist because IE is popular because IE-only sites exist...
The first "base case" of this recursion was Microsoft making sure that IE exists on every single installation of Windows. That made web site developers think "If I develop for IE, I get most of the users, if I develop for something else I don't. Even if a user of Windows prefers something else to IE, I know that at least they have IE available as a fallback when they can't use my site in Netscape." (Of course the notion that it is good to develop for *all* browsers is alien to a lot of people).
The actual quality of IE versus the competition is irrelevant to this scenario.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_
Including:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_
http://www.apple.com/downloads
http://www.apple.com/
http://www.apple.com/d
http://www.apple.com/downl
Where's Microsoft's version of these pages?
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, name one operating system that doesn't require applications to be written/compiled specifically for it. Name one operating system that you can run Mac, Linux, Windows, Solaris, and OS/2 binaries on natively. Can't think of any? That's what I thought.
And Apple WILL service your machine if you add RAM and hard drives. What you stated is an outright lie. If your 3rd party devices are the cause of your problem however, why should apple fix/replace components that they didn't supply? Are you going to go to Dell when the Crucial memory you bought goes on the fritz?
You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Think about these scenarios for a second:
Microsoft doesn't include ANY sort of browser in the default Windows install. Only the technically literate will be able to get a browser using commandline FTP tools. This limits people's access to other browsers more than the current situation.
Microsoft includes Mozilla and IE in its default Windows install. This is something we would NEVER expect any other company to do. See the Nissan/Mazda example above. Also, what about people that don't like EITHER, should they also include Opera and Konqueror ports?
Windows installs only Mozilla by default. Same song, different pitch. Not only will M$ never do this they have no reason to be expected to do it, nor would this change the situation. Eventually everyone would use Mozilla and people would bitch about it and complain that M$ was forcing them to use Mozilla.
Personally, I hate M$ and IE. I use Gentoo/XFCE4/Firefox at home (have to use IE at work...), but this is an area where we really can't FIX the problem in any way other than doing our best to make people aware of the alternatives and helping them install the software if they can. Also we should do our best to stop new sites from using IE-centric features or just blindly assuming they are being viewed on a Win 9x/NT system using IE.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Interesting)
My point is that it's not Ford's problem if someone keeps buying their lower-quality vehicles. They could easily walk further down the street to the Toyota dealership and get a better-made car. But they don't bother taking the personal responsibility to get informed.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
95%+ of all gas stations sell proprietary FORD ONLY gas protected by patents.
95%+ of tire stations sell proprietary FORD ONLY tires protected by patents.
95%+ of mechanic shops service FORD ONLY cars
95%+ of of all auto parts stores sell FORD ONLY proprietary parts.
95%+ of etc, etc This situation was created by Ford because of their illegal monopoly and tactics. The others went were the money is just to survive. If Ford had not been an illegal monopoly and engaged in anti-competitive tactics, competition would have come along and made the market much better overall.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe, if Ford was the only car manufacturer you knew about.
Maybe if when you drove car you didn't see any other cars.
Maybe if almost all your friends and neighbors drove Fords, except for the graphic designer down the street who drives a deisel BMW.
Maybe if the other person you know who doesn't drive a Ford is one guy from your IT department... and he drives a Chevy that runs off of used vegetable oil.
Maybe if schools provided their students with Fords and your work provides you with a Ford.
Maybe if switching to a Mercury requires that you tow it home with your Ford, and you have to keep the Ford around, not only because you cannot get rid of it, but also in case there is a road the Mercury can't drive on.
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd say that the problem MS has (other than a tendency to unfairly dominate the market) is that they are *too* reliant on the end-user. All too often with MS, it really *is* a feature and not a bug.
Re:stop spinning (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:stop spinning (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I am concerned, people who do not take their own lives seriously enough to read and educate themselves get the miserable lives they deserve.
Think it's callous? Watch discovery channel and note that the lioness goes for the antelope that limps.
A while back I was at a restaurant. I was also working in the restaurant industry, so I know good customer service skills. The manager at that Burger King on Sherman Way in Reseda treated his customers like dirt. Now, I though: "that's unfair" and I wanted to go tell him. Yet I thought to myself: "why should I help this man run his restaurant better? He'll just compete against me better. Fuggedaboutit."
(I'll get to MS in a second)
As I was driving away, I was thinking about the customers that go to that place. You know, the ones that don't know any better.
Now, you know, Microsoft understands that 90% of the world's people are generally stupid and uneducated. They cater to them. They give them crappy software that makes lUsers feel smart (in retrospect, it's hard, you know, to make something that makes a stupid person feel smart), they take their money, treat them like dirt (no phone support, no email support, we'll sue your ass if you steal from us), and the customers just love it...
I have no sympathy for those users.
I wish microsoft good luck in their endehavor to cater to the stupid 95%.
If that's what we open source people want to cater to, I say watch out. It's harder than it seems to make a stupid person go "this was easy". There's gonna be a lot of good high quality complex and powerful software that's gonna become mundaine and everyday for the everyman, thus absolutely unuseable by the people who have to get the work done.
Re:stop spinning (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's another -- I read an article in a medical journal a few years back. It discussed doctors giving too many antibiotics to the ignorant masses -- who demand antibiotics for everything from a common cold to a stubbed toe. This results in selecting for antibiotic-resistant bacteria -- super-bugs, if you will. The result is disease that can no longer be combatted by antibiotics. There are several bacteria that now exhibit resistance to penicillin -- for a long time, the most powerful weapon in the antibiotic arsenal.
It is in the best interests of EVERYONE that people lose their ignorance. Many need help to do it. Are you going to chip in? Or are you going to sit on the sidelines when the social, environmental, and financial systems collapse and giggle about how fucking smart you are?
Re:thats crap (Score:5, Insightful)
This has nothing to do with personal responsibility. If I purchased a DVD player that had bad wiring that could start a fire, would I be required to take it apart and solder myself? What if the DVD player were just defective? I still would not be required to fix it. The maker or a tech would do it at the makers expense. Liability for paid-for software should be no different. Note: paid-for software does not include closed sourced software that is free of charge. Basically, if you pay for a product, the maker of that product should be financially responsible to a certain extent.
Re:Microsoft are lying to us (Score:4, Interesting)
This would indicate to me that if Microsoft didn't ship with IE as "The Internet" (tm), the vast majority of mothers would never even have the opportunity to use the internet. Maybe this isn't quite as bad for everyone as most of us think...
Moms and grandmas not always so dumb (Score:5, Interesting)
Now she doesn't do all the power user stuff but the point is that with a basic understanding of computer usage she was able to kick the IE habit.
Don't underestimate the ability of the average user to see the problems that IE has and to move away from it. Apathy however can be powerful and I think that's the main culprit.
Re:Microsoft are lying to us (Score:4, Funny)
A man walks into the bar and orders up 6 shots of vodka.
The bartender says "woah! Six! What's the occasion?"
The man says "well, my first blowjob actually."
Bartender: "Hah! Well i'll give you a seventh shot on the house."
Man: "No thanks... if six vodka shots won't get the taste out of my mouth, nothing will."
Re:Microsoft are lying to us (Score:4, Funny)
Q: You know what Bill Gates's wife discovered on their honeymoon?
A: What Microsoft *really* means!
Re:Microsoft are lying to us (Score:5, Insightful)
I think we need to get over this fear/belief that we
Why don't you try telling your mom that their is a different browser out there, give her the URL for Mozilla or what have you.
Maybe you'll find that your mother isn't some backwards internet user but she is actually capable of fending for herself.
Choice, Laziness, Ignorance (Score:5, Insightful)
If the Browser-Fairy were to suddenly change the target of the desktop icon on every computer all over the world from iexplorer.exe to firefox.exe, the market share for IE would go to something like 10% or less. Very few users would make the effort to switch it back. IE is a virtual monopoly because Windows is a desktop monopoly. There is no conscience choice involved.
Re:Choice, Laziness, Ignorance (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like we need an IE worm that does just that
(j/k
Re:Microsoft are lying to us (Score:5, Funny)
I'm not sure if this is a golf joke or a sex joke:
Two business partners are playing golf. The two women playing in front of them are playing slowly and badly, and holding them up. One businessman says to his partner, "I'll go ask if we can play through." He starts walking toward them, but about halfway there, he turns around. When he gets back, his partner asks what happened.
He replies, "I can't talk to those women, one of then is my wife, and the other is my mistress. Why don't you go talk to them?" The second man starts to walk over. He gets halfway there and turns around. When he gets back, his partner asks, "Now what happened?" To this he replies, "Small world, isn't it?"
Re:Microsoft are lying to us (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Microsoft are lying to us (Score:5, Insightful)
THIS IS THE WAY THE INDUSTRY USED TO WORK.
What a moron you are.
Your analogy is broken. (Score:5, Insightful)
When you drive your Subaru, the radio plays ads for Ford. And Chevy. And Kia, &c
> When I drink my Starbucks I don't get told that I could also be drinking Folgers.
When you go to the grociery store, you see House Blend next to #10 cans of Folgers.
> If your ignorant mother had a computer that had no web browser on it would she know a different way to get to the Internet, find an FTP site that has browsers for download, retrieve one, and install it?
Non-sequiter. Would anyone not familiar with the technology know how?
Re:Microsoft are lying to us (Score:5, Insightful)
When I drive my Subaru it doesn't pop-up ads for Ford.
When I drink my Starbucks I don't get told that I could also be drinking Folgers.
Bad analogy. Even fairly clueless people know that there are different brands of cars, coffee, etc. That's because there is competition, and face it - people probably put more thought into what they want in a car than they do with computers. A computer, to the "mothers" of the world, is an appliance. Until people realize that computers, like cars, require smart buying, maintenance, and can vary widely in terms of quality, that's the way it will be.
Even with the appliance analogy, however, there is a problem. Most people realize that if you don't clean, maintain, and intelligently use an appliance, it is not going to work very well or for very long. If I don't use my toaster properly, I'll probably set my kitchen on fire. Similarly, if I don't use my computer properly, I could end up losing all my data or having my credit card # hijacked.
Anyway, I got sidetracked there. Just keep in mind that when a monopoly has a stranglehold on a market, all the rules change. Microsoft doesn't necessarily have to advertise competing products, but the rules are different when the market is not totally or even mostly free. And there's no excuse for providing a crappy, security breach of a product, monopoly or no...
Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft will now suppress downloads not initiated by the user directly.
Along with other things like this one, Microsoft is effectively blocking pop-up ads this time around. It's should at least rival the offerings from Mozilla, OmniWeb, etc.
This is finally gone! No more shithole websites set as the default
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
* Do not install ActiveX controls using a pop-up window or HTML dialog.
* Do not suggest to users they should lower their security settings to install an ActiveX control.
* Do create an instance of the ActiveX control on a standalone page describing the purpose and end-user impact of the control.
I had to read that twice to be sure that it was true...
They're saying they're making IE more secure by asking website authors not to exploit it?!?!?!?
OK, you can shoot me now. I've seen everything.
Re:Well (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
But I would like to point out that this is vastly superior not blocking automatic downloads. As of now, the user is bombarded with spyware downloads that the typical user does not recognize as spyware.
In this case, I think it best to leave some inconvenience for the geeks that can stand the inconvenience as opposed to leaving the door wide open for spammers and malware creators.
Oh my... (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps MS has finally looked at themselves and figured they were behind the times with their browser technology. Sure, they might still be #1, but word spreads quick about the underlying problems and that there is actually another browser choice out there... And it's better! The security problems right now are just the icing on the cake.
Why can't you comment on them? Why wouldn't you implement the CSS3 standard? Am I missing something here?
Re:Oh my... (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft the underdog. (Score:5, Insightful)
As a peon, what would influence you to work harder? Being told that you're the underdog and you're going to get stomped on by Sun, Apple and probably now Linux, or being told that you have a world wide monopoly in the desktop computing space and companies are throwing buckets of money at you every year despite the fact that your software is mediocre at best.
It seems like a logical thing to tell your employees. I guess they leave out the specifics of exactly where they would be classified as the underdog.
Re:Microsoft the underdog. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Microsoft the underdog. (Score:5, Interesting)
I've had lengthy discussions with a number of different 'Softies about this.
Keep in mind that Microsoft has a very consistent and very strong corporate culture. Everyone there thinks the way Gates wants them to.
The people over there truly believe that they are somehow "saving the world" with their software, and that they are the only ones capable of doing so.
It's truly bizarre.
Re:Microsoft the underdog. (Score:4, Insightful)
Some may wish to flame me for this, but, how is that any different than how the U.S. views themselves on the world stage.
It has been a long standing view of mine that Microsoft is to U.S. citizens, what the U.S. government is to the world.
Re:Microsoft the underdog. (Score:5, Insightful)
influenced by the actual opinions of individual Americans.
Re:Microsoft the underdog. (Score:5, Informative)
On top of that threat from beneath there is also the threat from his big business peers. IBM, Apple, Sun, Oracle, etc. - they all want to knock Microsoft down. Combined they account for even more intellectual and financial capital. He's on top now and they *HAVE* to work with him but they resent it. If M$ teeters it's disgruntled allies will seek to knock him down. Some of them with a great deal of pleasure.
We see Microsoft on top but Gates sees it as being on top in the same way a rodeo rider is on top of the horse.
Big Mistake... (Score:5, Insightful)
Functions that return a window object will return null if the window is blocked. Always check the return value of window.open() before using it to avoid script errors when pop-ups are blocked.
By allowing a script to determine if the popup was blocked, it opens the floodgates for even more annoying and intrusive advertising.
Now whenever the page detects it's popup was blocked, it will force the user to view a full-screen advertising page for a pre-determined time, or other annoyances.
When will advertisers get the message. If people block pop-up windows, they do so for a reason - they are not interested in you're stupid special offers. They should spare themselves the bandwidth and everyone else the annoyance.
Popups and Returning Null (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Popups and Returning Null (Score:5, Funny)
9.0? What are you, from the 23rd century?
IE to block popups. (Score:5, Interesting)
This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.
tcd004
Re:IE to block popups. (Score:5, Insightful)
This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.
Agreed! But only if by "dead" you actually mean "more insidious" or "replaced by even more sinister means to spam-advertise you to death."
I dread the ubiquitous use of pop-up blockers, as that means their effectiveness will soon wane..
Re:IE to block popups. (Score:4, Informative)
Most of the problematic friends/relatives/co-workers/etc. who bug me with computer questions are still using Windows 98/ME/2000... heck I know people still using Windows 95 because they're too cheap to upgrade...
I seriously doubt that this is the end of the pop-up ad as we know it...
Re:IE to block popups. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:IE to block popups. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would add to that prediction that help line call for institutions that use popups as part of their interface will skyrocket.
Re:IE to block popups. (Score:5, Insightful)
This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.
WTF? You must joking, you actually must think that everyone, or even most will update.
Heck, there are still many people who are only using win98 [thecounter.com].
Re:IE to block popups. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, it simply means that window.open() popups will be dead in a year's time. It's an arms race, just like spam vs. antispam. Popups will simply move from JavaScript to CSS. The popup window appears as a CSS layer which is above the layer showing the main page.
To see an example of this, go to http://www.tek-tips.com [tek-tips.com]. The first thing you'll see is a popup sailing across your screen and bouncing a couple of times off the bottom before giving you the opportunity to close it.
This is the near future of annoying adversiting, folks.
Innovation (Score:5, Funny)
tabbed browsing
popup blocking
mouse gestures
Incorporate stuff like that and get a jump on the competition...
Oh, wait....nevermind.
CSS Support???? (Score:5, Informative)
IE stills sucks at CSS support. The bottom line is, when I design something and test it in mozilla, it also looks fine in Opera and Safari. When I look at it in IE there's a very good chance something looks wrong due to some missing feature or weird implementation.
They just hack everything together. You can't even use css like tr:hover although a:hover works because of their shitty implementation.
Re: Microsoft Responds to IE Criticism (Score:5, Informative)
1. The modal installation prompt for ActiveX controls will be initially suppressed using the Information Bar.
2. Changes would have to be made to the way some pages automatically redirect or behave differently when refreshed after a control is not installed
3. If the dialog does not provide an option to install the ActiveX control, the file might not be correctly signed. - Phew! No more hidden installs then, hopefully!
4. In SP2, the Information Bar will suppress file download prompts that are launched automatically
5. Enforcement of file-extensions to match the content-type.
6. SP2 will have the pop-up blocker that is turned on by default
7. And, finally, there are some browser window restrictions
I still don't think SP2 will be a panacea, but for corporations with a large number of users, or naive end-users, SP2 should bring a sigh of relief...
he's right (Score:5, Insightful)
Every time you complain to any software company about a bug, a misfeature, or a problem, you are giving them something pretty valuable, something they would otherwise have to pay a lot of money to find through testing. But all your investment in time and bug reporting is repaid by--having to pay for the next upgrade.
It's like sending the company a $50 donation and then still paying $200 for the next upgrade.
That's one of the reasons why it is so important to use open source alternatives when available: when you report bugs in OSS, you don't pay for the resulting improvements over and over again.
Users, not programmers or lines of code, are the most valuable asset any software project has.
Re:he's right (Score:4, Informative)
They are Evil, not Stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
They may not have much respect for the typical consumer, be slow to respond, and ship buggy software, but they are anything but stupid.
From their standpoint, there really is not much imperative need to respond to complaints until they become critical enough to convince a common user to switch to a competing product.
But when it becomes apparant that such a thing is happening, they can and will respond.
END COMMUNICATION
Re:They are Evil, not Stupid (Score:5, Interesting)
I would imagine that the developer's hands were tied in allowing it in IE in the user friendly (but insecure) way that made it such a problem. If the devs were behind it, I am guessing they did not forsee all the evil uses it could be used for that give such a headache today. Other browsers have had the luxury of seeing how bad ActiveX became and learned from its mistakes.
I consider myself a "nice" and not evil person, and I know that given an offer w/ a decent raise, I would join MS, and work in its IE department.
Direct your anger towards the corner offices, not the guys in the cubes. The guys in the cubes IMHO made a damn fast but out-of-the-box insecure browser. And unlike an open source project, I wouldnt expect these guys to deliver any scathing remarks about their boss's or MS's decisions, because im sure they like doing what they are doing, warts and all, and generally like their jobs, and would not want to jeopardize them- and what company really wants to deal with a developer who will go around in public blasting the company on one of its most high-profile products.
I, for one, (Score:5, Funny)
am willing to take the responsibility of repeatedly kicking them in the nuts if it'll make them develop better code.
I didn't know they welcome the 'heated feedback'. Poor things...all they had to do was ask.
Underdog (Score:4, Funny)
Wonder how it got there?... oh, bad programming practices for one!
We can't commit... (Score:4, Interesting)
They seemed evasive and unwilling to say anything except marketing-speak. What's the point of chatting to the community if you aren't allowed to talk about the product?
Interesting comment about feedback... (Score:5, Interesting)
Which, frankly, sucks because there are so many features on Firefox that I like, but it's so slow that I can't use it for everyday browsing.
My question is this: Are we so anti-Microsoft that we'll settle for clunkier software without complaint, just because it's not made by Microsoft? Where is the hue and cry for a faster, more responsive Firefox? Why do we accept things without complaint just because we admire the politics of the developers?
Short memory.. (Score:5, Interesting)
How often to people give heated feedback to, for example, Mozilla/Firefox? I personally find the browser to slow and clunky in many ways, which is why I use IE and a popup blocker (Google Toolbar) rather than Mozilla, for sheer speed.
Only 18 months ago Mozilla was considered a poster child for a failed free software project. It was ridiculed frequently on this forum for being slow, buggy, etc... Then along comes Firefox. How short the collective memory is! The Mozilla developers fought through it all. They deserve our highest esteeme.
Re:Interesting comment about feedback... (Score:5, Informative)
user_pref("network.http.pipelining", true);
user_pref("network.http.proxy.pipelining"
user_pref("network.http.pipelining.maxreq
user_pref("nglayout.initialpaint.delay", 0);
user_pref("config.trim_on_minimize", false);
And..watch your page load times fall dramatically. Especially on a page with a lot of images.
CSS3 support (Score:5, Insightful)
WTF? I don't want them to add more CSS, I want them to get what they have working like it should.
All the designers I have worked with are mad as hell. The amount of hacks they have to use to produce CSS that is cross-browser compatible and doesn't look like shit on IE is absurd, and the extra time spent on that is killing my budgets.
In other words, I'm mad as hell with IE and Microsoft. I don't really give a damn that IE doesn't have tabbed browsing, or that it ships with insecure defaults. Couldn't give a rat's ass about the lack of pop-up blocking. I care that every f'ing simple web design project's budget has to account for a few extra hours getting their shit working properly.
When FF hits 1.0, I'll go on a mission to convert as many people from IE. I hope others do the same; maybe this will help M$ wake up and smell the standards.
Better suggestion (Score:5, Insightful)
No. All of the IE engineers should have a twelve-year-old kid use their computer at night while they're out of the office. Maybe after uninstalling a few thousand pieces of spyware they'll reconsider some of their basic design choices.
Default System Browser (Score:5, Informative)
What a load of shit. I spent 8 hourts on line with MS tech support trying to disable IE entirely from my system. You see, when you remove it, the system recreates it. And even when it isn't there, it uses a default installed version which is integrated into the system.
Microsoft tech support has NO CLUE on how to remove it so I messaed around and came up with a way to have all Microsoft apps default to using Firefox [crackbaby.com] instead
M$ still employs IE engineers? (Score:5, Insightful)
CSS CSS CSS (Score:5, Insightful)
I, along with so many other developers are sick and tired of hacking our otherwise perfectly valid and conforming CSS and markup to make it display properly in the hack you call a browser, which has remained virtually unchanged since the *conception* of Mozilla's Gecko engine. Before you start implementing *parts* of CSS3, why don't you fully and *PROPERLY* implement CSS2? Have you seen the numerous sites dedicated to Internet Explorer specific CSS hacks? You are the most HATED browser. Developers are outraged. It's ridiculous. No one CHOOSES to use IE.
I feel guilty about flaming you on CSS support. I'd much rather see the browser and company just collapse under the power and superior quality of Free and Open Source software. But since that's not going to happen any time soon, and since you're not going to be shipping Firefox or an alternative with your POS software you call an Operating System, and since it's unfortunate that somewhere like 90% of the population uses that abomination you call Internet Explorer... my head would stop spinning so fast if I could just write valid XHTML markup and valid CSS and
Just stop trying and give up, for the good of the common man. Really. Your days are numbered, so why not take some time to think about the good old days, and just let natural progression drag you under.
Thank you.
one more thing to block by default... (Score:4, Funny)
"Do you want to download our new penis enlargment software?" (yes/no)
*clicks no*
"Are you sure you dont? It will make your penis 5 times longer straight away... and if you add it to startup, your penis will grow 5 inches on every reboot. Visit our homepage." (yes/no)
*clicks no*
"Ok, so may we interest you in some generic viagra instead?"
ARGHHHH!
What's that I hear? (Score:5, Funny)
Awwww poor, MS!
Other things to be concerned about (Score:5, Funny)
Funnny, I thought having the Department Of Homeland Security recommending other browsers because of the abysmal security was plenty of reason for concern.
MS needs to give up IE (Score:5, Interesting)
MS does not try to create innovate products for customers. All MS does is look at where it is losing market share, then quickly hack a barely functional product that will keep customers from leaving. The world went GUI, a year later MS had a GUI. The Internet happened, a year later MS had a browser. Customer started putting servers on commodity hardware, much later MS had server software. This has been the case with media players, music services, nearly everything. Even the wonderful Excel was based on other popular products.
MS needs to give up the browser. It was a ill thought out reaction to the fear of losing market share, and all the problems result from the bad engineering that occurs when people are in a hurry. IE makes a fine application frontend, and they should concentrate on promoting it for that use. Data servers on the back end, the local IE rendering the GUI.
This will not happen because MS quality cannot compete in the open marketplace, and though many will continue to use IE due to the tight integration with other MS products, others will use the change as an opportunity to move to more reliable solutions.
Underdog culture (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course!
This is a fundamental part of the culture at MS. They nuture the "underdog feeling" there in order to remain so fiercely competitive -- even when the product is a near-monopoly.
I saw this when I was an intern on the Excel team some 10 years ago -- the team leaders took pride in obsessing over what the competition was doing, and acting almost as if the company were going to go out of business in 3 months if they didn't.
If this applies to the marketing/legal departments too, that would explain a lot of MS's behavior.
It's related to the 'innovation' thing... (Score:5, Interesting)
Their marketing and sales force has the general public convinced they're brilliant innovators, but among their technical peers, they're behind the curve. We know it, they know it, and it gives them an inferiority complex a mile wide.
Oh heaven help us now (Score:5, Funny)
What would we ever do without these wonderful features?
There are IE Engineers?!? (Score:5, Interesting)
Check out some of these release dates: [microsoft.com]
6.0 --> 31-Dec-2001
6.0 SP1 --> 28-Aug-2002
I thought IE on the Mac was dead... judging by their release schedule, IE on the PC has been dead for years. Any other software company that waited *years* to release their next version of internet software (or an operating system, no less) would be dead in the water.
What really makes me mad is they drove other browsers into the ground during the war, only to sit on their haunches and enjoy the elimination of their competition. Thank goodness for Mozilla, or we'd all be in real trouble.
Get to work MS.
--J
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Avoidance of the W3C standards question (Score:5, Interesting)
Obviously if they were 100% compliant then web developers would stick to the standards, and any compliant browser would work and IE would start to lose market share.
Notice that his responses kept repeating the "needing to support current customer configs". What he really means is "ensuring continued customer lock-in to IE and Windows".
I bet they had PR coaches sitting right next to them the whole time the chat was going on.
Hilarious!
Finally (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it's a good development. For one, it means that not everyone will go over to firefox. I wouldn't want everyone on firefox, just as I don't want everyone on internet explorer. I want there to be some sort of balance.
I'm fine with a vast majority of people using IE once this service pack comes through for XP. If it does what they want it to, and they aren't putting themselves at risk, then I'm all for it.
My concern is for the users on legacy operating systems, who will never get an internet explorer update. They will still be vulnerable to exploitation. As they still comprise a surprising amount of internet users, this is some cause for concern. Any news on if Microsoft will be releasing the updates to IE as a standalone upgrade? Or are these things specific to the operating system?
The conspiratorial part of me wonders if Microsoft was planning this all along. To leave the browser abandoned so people get scared about security issues, and then release the fix for many security issues as a Windows XP only service pack.
MIME Type vs Extensions (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not so sure I like or agree with that one.
MIME types are there for a reason, so I can serve anyfile.anyext as text/html or image/jpeg. Or name.hubba as a Quicktime movie. I'd expect both to work, since that's what MIME types are for...
Extensions are a bad hack, and a relic from the DOS era. They should get rid of them instead of enforcing them (yeah, I know Mac OS X partially fell for extensions also, poor sods).
Re:MIME Type vs Extensions (Score:5, Interesting)
The filename extension is just metadata, like the name, size and creation date. There's no real reason why it has to form part of the filename. That's just how DOS was designed.
Hiding the filename extension is Win95's (and its successors') way of emulating the Classic MacOS approach of storing the filetype in a separate metadata field. In DOS, it essentially was a separate metadata field (char filename[8], char type[3], if you like) but long filenames made that a bit hazy.
The point I'm riding at is that while storing it somewhere is good for usability, there's no good reason to put it in the filename. UNIX traditionally doesn't store this meta-data at all, and the user is left to just "know" what each file is. That's bad. MacOS's approach (storing the type as separate filesystem meta-data) is, I think, a good approach.
Reality Check 2 (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What about the file download counters? (Score:5, Informative)
Since it's more difficult to configure a web server to count downloads of all file types, people often use a PHP script which redirects to the target file.
For example http://server.com/getfile.php?file=test.exe
The PHP script updates the server-side counter and then redirects the user to the real file they wanted.
Ever seen those "Your download should start in 5 seconds..." messages?
The new behaviour will make it impossible to automatically pop up a file download dialog, rendering this type of download counter/anti-leech script usless.
Troll much? (Score:5, Insightful)
And for features, how does IE have more features when you get tabbed browsing and popup blocking in Mozila or FireFox?
What "features" does IE have that FireFox is lacking?
Re:In support (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:In support (Score:4, Informative)
Aside from those two glaring errors, Firefox has a greater set of default functionality and a HUGE plethora of add-ons that extend it's ability.
Plus it doesn't use ActiveX. Need I say more?
Re:GIve people choice, get real feedback (Score:5, Interesting)
One can say that of Windows and IE. But Office, where Microsoft makes its money, won out in a crowded field. Gates once said, of how Office began, "We asked developers to develop for Windows, and they said no. So we asked Microsoft's Application Division, and they didn't have that option." Many of Microsoft's competitors in office-type programs stayed with DOS too long. Lotus (of Lotus 1-2-3, not Notes) was bigger than Microsoft until the early 1990s.
Today, Office is where Microsoft makes its big money. Windows makes some money, and everything else (XBox, MSN, tools. etc. loses money). The real threat to Microsoft is not Linux. It's OpenOffice.