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Technology

Reinventing the Wheel 311

Posted by michael from the fix-a-flat dept.
bob zee sent in this link about reinventing the wheel, err, tweel, err, whatever. Wheels are an interesting challenge in engineering design: they need to be hard to be durable, soft for a smooth ride, grippy to grab the road, but smooth to reduce rolling resistance, flexible to absorb shocks, yet stiff to reduce heat build-up, and so on. Rubber tires are a relatively recent invention.
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Reinventing the Wheel More

Reinventing the Wheel

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  • Wrong Direction? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by fembots ( 753724 )
    If the article (and test) is accurate, almost nothing's good about this Tweel, but let's not give up hope yet. If lobbysts have their way, a new noise-reduction pad and better suspension will be "invented" so that problems like noise and feel of a coarse road surface (introduced by this Tweel) can be eliminated.

    It's like somebody created an OS, but it's full of security holes, fear not, we can always create software like firewall and anti-virus to solve those problems.

    • Re:Wrong Direction? (Score:5, Informative)

      by SIGALRM ( 784769 ) * on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:20PM (#11258975) Journal
      If the article (and test) is accurate, almost nothing's good about this Tweel
      I think it's an interesting engineering feat, although they might have a hard time marketing it in Arkansas [state.ar.us], where it appears non-pneumatic tires are prohibited for speeds > 10mph.

      I wonder if other states maintain such restrictions?
      • In Arkansas.... but they would look good on all the cars up on blocks in the front yards :-)
      • It's a good thing that it doesn't apply to the railroad :-)
        • Now if a war broke out in Arkansas, can the military be given a fine for driving around in their tanks? (they most likely have a bigger gun than the cop, but two wrongs don't still make a right)

      • Lantern law (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        "where it appears non-pneumatic tires are prohibited for speeds > 10mph."

        That's not half as bad as the requirement that a person waving a lantern has to walk ten feet in front of the car to avoid spooking horses. They really need to change that law. The wife is getting tired of waving a lantern everytime we go out to dinner.

      • Re:Wrong Direction? (Score:2, Interesting)

        by owlstead ( 636356 )
        The law is supposed to strengthen rules created by society. If any law restricts change within that society then that law should be rewritten. In other words: society is the base, not the law.

        I presume that if - after some rigorous testing - this tweel has been found to be a success, the law will change accordingly without to much fuss. If it doesn't, it is time to take a serious look at your political leaders.

      • I think it would be a good practice for all laws to have a Sunset clause in them.

        It will clear the books of nonsense like this which serve no purpose, but could be used against someone who doesn't have the correct political affiliation du jour.

        If nothing else, it would at least keep legislatures out of trouble, making up new nonsense/bad laws [*cough* DMCA *cough*] for as long as it takes them to keep renewing obviously useful laws.

        Of course this would only work if they had to deal with laws one at a

    • Re:Wrong Direction? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Crash24 ( 808326 )
      I agree. In spite of the obvious problems, tt does look promising.
      On second thought, what if debris gets caught in the polyurethane spokes?

    • Re:Wrong Direction? (Score:5, Informative)

      by DeathFlame ( 839265 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:26PM (#11259028)
      So they improved it in two ways: It won't go flat. and you get more traction (due to stiffer side stability, which you can get in a narrow profile tire anyways)

      But the negatives:

      1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

      2) More Friction - Again, a drop in efficency due to difficult in rolling the wheel

      3) More Expensive - No longer a need for "expensive" tire pressure monitoring systems (which probably aren't all that expensive, although they are sometimes troublesome) and you don't have to replace your tires as often, but if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

      4) Noise - No one likes loud tires.

      Now I doubt they can get the weight down to a point that is ever lower than that of a rubber air filled tire (air is... well very light) but I could see a weight improvement, and the friction improvement both helping with research and design. And the cost of the tires will always probably remain higher, so this looks like long term technology to me.

      • Re:Wrong Direction? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by pz ( 113803 )
        1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

        The materials they used are proof-of-concept, rather than advanced. With the tweel design, automotive engineers will be liberated from the traditional axle-into-hub design, and the tweel can mount directly on the axle, eliminating the heavy metallic wheel.

        2) More Friction - Again, a drop in efficency due to difficult in rolling the wheel

        Materials. I'm impressed that they got to within 5% at the f

      • Re:Wrong Direction? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Martin Blank ( 154261 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @08:59PM (#11259782) Homepage Journal
        if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

        If they last 3x as long (as the article suggests they might) then it balances out, and there is at least a possibility of savings of time from not having to change the tires as often, not to mention the lower volume of scrap material.
    • I didn't read the article and test as showing 'almost nothing good.'

      While the concept has some obvious bugs to work out (vibration, suspension issues), they are nothing insurmountable and it seems to me that the tweel is a step in the right direction - more responsive handling, fewer parts and less end waste (i.e. rather than chucking the tweel away when it is worn down, you have it retreaded. This reduction in landfill waste alone makes it worth checking out).

      I don't know about 'tweel' though. . .

      • Re:I beg to differ. (Score:4, Informative)

        by DeathFlame ( 839265 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:28PM (#11259057)
        Rubber tires are already used in asphalt for improved roads, so the rubber tire landfill issue is becoming non existant.
        • As well as athletic fields and other creative recycling projects; however, I don't believe we are anywhere near 100% reuse (though I could be wrong).

          There is also the argument that because you only need to replace the tread, fewer resources are consumed in the replacement process (an environmental boon on the other end of the product's life).

        • And semi tires are already retreaded.


        • There are also power-generation facilities that burn discarded tires to generate electricity. [wasteage.com]
      • Retreads are economical, but they are also somewhat of a hazard.

        It is very common for retreads to separate from the underlying tire and leave a 6 foot long piece of vulcanized rubber somewhere in the roadway. Worse, since it was molded into a circlar shape at some point, the retread doesn't want to lie flat on the road so pretty much the next car that comes along is going to get damaged.
    • Sounds like an excellent motorcycle tire to me ^_^
      • Actually, I'm not sure how well that'd work. Most of the excitement here is that you can make lateral flexibility and vertical flexibility vary independently, to satisfy the goals of smooth ride, consistent traction, and good maneuverability.

        Unfortunately, motorcyles don't have a consistent "lateral" and "vertical" orientation for their wheels. As soon as you turn sharply, you're sideways enough that these two axes are nearly reversed, and your tires end up doing exactly the wrong things.

    • It's like somebody created an OS, but it's full of security holes, fear not, we can always create software like firewall and anti-virus to solve those problems.

      I like to think of it as moving security code outside of the kernel ;) Lots of little apps working together, and all that ...
    • Great one for criminals trying to out-run the police, no more deflating the tires using mats full of tiny tubes which puncture the tire...

      Well also reduces the chance of blowouts, and the hastle of monitoring the pressure of your tire, but all the other problems will no doubt be with us until we give up using things which have wheels :)
    • If the article (and test) is accurate, almost nothing's good about this Tweel

      I'm replying because I don't know if I should classify "didn't read the article" as Troll or Flamebait. Maybe both? If you did read the article, you seem to have missed the point. Have you ever had a blowout on a busy freeway? Not fun. Not safe. Eliminating blowouts is a very big deal in terms of public safety, and the tests mentioned in the article are still in the research phase.

      The other big deal is handling. For a

  • Wheels? (Score:4, Funny)

    by aznxk3vi17 ( 465030 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:17PM (#11258935)
    Out of all the things to reinvent... the wheel?

    I'm still waiting on that new mousetrap! That Rube-Goldberg device of a game just isn't cutting it.

  • Filed under "Technology"... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Vexler ( 127353 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:17PM (#11258937) Journal
    Great. Back to the basics. What's next - the incline plane?

  • Bikes! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by odyrithm ( 461343 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:20PM (#11258979)
    "Engineers at Michelin's American technology center here envision a future in which vehicles would ride on what they call the Tweel, a combined tire and wheel that could never go flat because it contains no air"

    Please let them bring these out for motorbikes, thats one of those things we bikers dream about.. a tyre that never goes pop when your doing 100mph down the autobarnes.

    • Bikes!-Organ Donors. (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "Please let them bring these out for motorbikes, thats one of those things we bikers dream about.. a tyre that never goes pop when your doing 100mph down the autobarnes."

      If you're doing a 100MPH down the Autobahn? Tires going 'pop' are going to be the least of your worries. Of course 'pop' could simply be Darwin calling another biker home.

      • Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors. (Score:5, Informative)

        by phoenix321 ( 734987 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @08:23PM (#11259506)
        You obviously never drove any German Autobahn, I'm sure. 100mph ~ 160kph and that's a normal vehicle speed over here. 130kph is officially "suggested" speed, but especially bike riders go lengths and lengths beyond that. 250kph ~ 155 mph is upper limit for most German motorbikers.

        Trucks and heavy vehicles can go 80kph/50mph, buses 100kph/62mph and everything else is unlimited by law.
        Compact cars, 3-doors etc. usually drive between 80kph (old and rugged cars/drivers) and 130kph with a few exceptions, notably Volkswagen "Lupo" and "Golf" in the "suicide engine" version with 120 or more HP, they are driven by lunatics 200kph or more no matter if the road is dry or below solid ice. But they are few and far between and you sure know why.

        Middle-class goes between 140 and 200kph, that range usually covers the bulk of cars. High powered suicide versions exist in this class, too, with 200 or more HP. And people who own them drive accordingly, tendency stable - more airbags 'n stuff I suppose.
        Cars beyond 200kph are less than 10%, usually the upper BMW, Mercedes Benz and Volkswagen models. They announce themselves from half a kilometre away with full headbeam and constant left turn indicator. If any driver is in front of them, they will brake at the last moment possible, if ever. Most other drivers cave in long before and leave the fastest inner lane rather quick if they see them approaching.

        Tire popping is seldom cause for accidents, most of the time it's trucks or other vehicles breaking out of 80kph formation on 1st going into 2nd lane overtaking some while forcing a "regular" car going 180kph or less out from 2nd to 3rd fastest lane. Where they collide with a suicide compact or fast upper class car from behind.

        I don't know that many Autobahn routes here in Germany, but I'd wager 30-40% of all routes are unlimited and 3-lane. The rest is 2-lane and limited to 120kph/75mph or 100kph, as the road condition permits. Autobahns passing larger cities are often limited for "lower noise level", near poorer cities for "speed control fills city coffers"-reason.

        It is not uncommon to have limits on a road to exist for various reasons, wind, noise, whatever, but road condition permits MUCH higher speeds. Everyone drives according to road condition then, bearing the risk of being "flashed" by police with radar speed cameras. Poorer municipalities are actually notorious for this and you cannot drive more than 200kms without meeting one of these cameras if you're unlucky.

        In cities, there are even more cameras. Can't drive longer than 30 minutes without seeing one in any city. It is even possible to have the German police temporarily limit a normally unlimited stretch of 3-lane Autobahn to 80kph or less and then lurking for and cashing in on "speeders" at the end of that temp limit zone. Shameless entrapment.

        Fines for speeding ~25 euros for less than 10km over, 50 euros for less than 20kms over and 100 or 200 euros for everything beyong, leading quickly to 2000 or losing license for more than 40 above.

        Germany has the most eased road laws in Europe, so nobody obeys the speed limit nowhere. In answer to that, speed limits are set much too low everywhere in hope the drivers will go their "usual 20kph" above and still keep on track. That way police and law enforcement can endlessly bilk drivers for their money while always having law on their side and public outrage silent. Nice trick, eh?

        In Norway for example, 10kph over the limit are rather expensive: 200 eur, 600 for over 20kph. There, speed limits are set almost right, with around 5-10kph left above. Eastern Europe speed limits are equally hard for everyone carrying Euros in their pocket but speed limits are brutally true. Any limit posted is true to the letter if not a bit daring on a dry and sunny day.
    • a tyre that never goes pop when your doing 100mph down the autobarnes. That's from being overloaded, those BMW's climbing over your ass get heavy. Flashing lights mean get the hell in the slow lane or you'll get run over, 100mph only in the urban zones; unless things have changed a bunch since the late '70's

  • Obvious idea. (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    "Wheels are an interesting challenge in engineering design: they need to be hard to be durable, soft for a smooth ride, grippy to grab the road, but smooth to reduce rolling resistance, flexible to absorb shocks, yet stiff to reduce heat build-up, and so on. "

    And yet we can't patent any of it.
  • Rollerblading wheels. They have had flexible hubs for a while.

  • Two words (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Dh2000 ( 71834 )
    Snow Crash

  • I think I've seen this some where before.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:27PM (#11259044)
    I think this (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/wheels-i mage02.html [nasa.gov] ) is an example of government research going to a consumer product....

    Think large....

  • Interesting if you RTFA (Score:4, Interesting)

    by razmaspaz ( 568034 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:28PM (#11259056)
    No doubt this article submission will get bashed for not being about star wars; but this is a fairly interesting article, if you take the time to read it. I was particularly interested in the fact that this "tire" improves cornering while maintaining a smooth ride. No doubt all the NASCAR fans out there will be happy. While I am sure this is a long way off, it looks promising.
    • I'm not a NASCAR fan, but DO enjoy road racing (mostly F1).

      I participate in SCCA Autocross, and my first reaction to the "tweel" is that to change my tires handling characteristics, now, instead of adding or removing air, I have to change the whole tire. all 4 of them, even.

      However, "five times as much lateral stiffness as current pneumatic tires" would be sweet.

      -geekd

  • Almost everything else about the Tweel is undetermined at this early stage of development, including serious matters like cost and frivolous questions like the possibilities of chrome-plating.

    Chrome-plating frivolous?! Forget cost -- don't you know that chrome makes it faster?
  • woooah!! is it just me, or did someone finally get the smart idea to submit a reg-free link to a nytimes story??

    </sarcasm>

  • It may not get punctures (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AC-x ( 735297 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @07:47PM (#11259225)
    But is it actually much stronger?

    The article doesn't mention what would happen if they did fail but if you drive over a large lump very fast will these spokes break and cause a nasty dent in the tire (resulting in a rather bumpy ride)?
  • If you took the time to RTFA, you would see that this is a brilliant idea. While "reinventing the wheel" may sound absurd, I think the engineers are up to something. Whether or not it will be adopted on a large scale is up for debate, but I could see this technology on mid to high-end cars, like Mercedes E class and above, Audi A6 and above, and so on. The initial cost would probably turn off most people from replacing their wheels and tires with the Tweel, but I could see some businesses adopting it, such
  • I had a bicycle 26 years ago that had solid rubber tires that were permanently attached to the wheels.

    These guys have seriously just reinvended the "Twheel".

    LK
  • Use stone wheels and make the roads out of iflateable rubber that way no one gets a flat, just everyone at the same time.
  • This is absurd, how will secret agents [imdb.com] be able to survive underwater for a few minutes whilst their arch-enemies check for survivors to a mysterious car crash?
  • I hope in their focus on the technical aspects of this project, the engineers aren't losing sight of a marketing point that could kill the whole thing for consumers:

    The bonding process that holds together the 4 parts of the wheel assembly must be easily performed by any old mechanic who has equipment no more expensive than that currently used to mount tires on wheels.

    Consumers want custom wheels for appearance. They want custom treads for varying levels of stickiness, control, and weather conditions. Th
    • Just as every garage didn't instantly get equipment to handle radials in the 60s, or electronic engine testers in the 80s, they won't instantly get tire-rebonders in the 00s (is that what this decade is called?1?)

      But they will over time... just like it originally cost hundreds of dollars and a huge machine to electronically test your engine, and now you can buy a $29.95 device to do it at home.
  • The PackBot [irobot.com] has had great success with a similar wheel. In that application, it's used as a sprocket for a track, but it's the same flexible-spoke concept. The PackBot is so rugged that normal usage is to throw it through a window into a building, then drive it around to see what's inside.
  • Even if you reinvent it, you will be liable for royalties.

    USPTO 5,707,114 [uspto.gov]

  • Potential here (Score:5, Informative)

    by Presence1 ( 524732 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @09:10PM (#11259870) Homepage
    The key here is the decoupling of the spring rate of the tire from the sidewall stiffness. That is HUGE and will give them all kinds of ability to dial in performance, ride, and other characteristics.

    But there is a definite shortage of info in this article.

    The statement '2-3x longer tread life than a radial' could be great, or it could be meaningless. Tread life is largely a function of tread compound, and a trade-off against grip level. They can make an extremely grippy tread that will only last for a few laps to qualify for a race, or a hard tread that will last 100K miles, but not both. Are they are actully projecting an ability to control the contact patch of this new wheel/tire so well that it wears less with the same compound, or are they merely planning to build it with a hard compound?

    Another issue is the weight. Extra weight here is in the worst possible place for the car's performance -- rotating, unsprung, and far from the car's rotational center of mass. This wheel/tire looks heavier with the ribs under the tread. However, it could actually be lighter with polyethelene spokes, and lighter sidewalls that only have to keep out dirt, not react the loads. (Of course, I'm not sure how far I'd want to push the side loads on those poly spokes, but that's another story...). I'd have to conclude right now that it is heavier, or they'd promote that benefit too.

    I think they're on to something interesting here. Is there any other info around on these issues?
  • I took a Java course in college and the first chapter in the Course Text was all about not re-inventing the wheel.
    But when I got a program off the internet and handed it in for my assignment I was penalised heavily.
  • ...dismissing the prejudice we have towards round wheels. What's wrong with triangular [wolfram.com] wheels I ask?

    (Incidentally, if you're in the SF Bay Area you can play with triangular rollers at the Exploratorium. Amazingly they give a nice smooth ride.)

  • Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gone.fishing ( 213219 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @10:51PM (#11260561) Journal
    Maybe I'm just getting old and crochety but why do we want to reinvent the wheel? It seems to me that the current technology is more than adequate and has advantages that the tweel will never match. First, I can buy wheels, and tires that meet my needs and offer combinations of style, price, and performance that would take many, many different stock numbers of tweels to even approximate! Second, the modest tire is a proven comfortable technology. Frankly, it would be hard to sell me on something else.

    I drive a 4X4 with what I would describe as very modest tires that carry a 60,000 mile rating! They cost less than $150/tire installed and they are running on "alloy wheels" which came from the factory. For less than $600 I can replace them and run them for another 60,000 miles which equates to almost four years of my daily use! That is a negligible cost when you think about it.

    My tires perform just fine on dry pavement, dirt roads, snow-covered roads and even on wet roadways. Hell, I don't hardly think of them which when you think about it, is about the best compliment that you can pay tires.

    My tire dealer gives me free rotation of the tires and it does them good too because I always get an oil change and safety check when I come in for a rotation. So, to me, in essence my current tires are all but maintence free.

    This has been my experience for years and years. Tires have become that good. Why would you want to give up this kind of reliability? I can't think of one good reason.

  • Designed for throw-a-way car market (Score:3, Insightful)

    by PyrotekNX ( 548525 ) on Tuesday January 04, 2005 @11:07PM (#11260614)
    In the not too far future, cars will basically be designed like a cheap printer. When it breaks you will just throw it away and buy a new one.

    The cars will be made out of mostly composites and plastics. This means that you will need to hire a specialist to do even the most minor repairs.

    Every aspect of the car will be electronically controlled and monitored and you will need special equipment to even begin troubleshooting the numerous electrical problems that will crop up. There will be so many electronic controls that if there is an electrical problem; basically it's non-repairable.

    Many car manufacturers are planning on sealing up the engine compartment and the engine itself. New super-lubricants are developed to last the 'life' of the car. (Previously on Slashdot)

    The Tweel fits into the same category. The major gripes of it are that it incorporates the tire, rim, and hub all into 1 package. When something like this goes mainstream, forget about custom wheels. Right now there is a big market and all sorts of different tires available for the consumer. If there is a specialized product like the tweel, then it would basically be a monopoly.
    The pneumatic tire has been around for 100 years and it has been constantly improved for the entire time. There is very little growing room for the tweel.

    Current models are heavier than a standard wheel. This increases the rolling mass which makes it harder to accelerate and stop. They will eventually get old and with all the stress they are likely to fail and collapse. Plastics become brittle with age and with all the stress they would be taking will cause them to fail and cause a nasty accident.

    The new marketing strategy of the throw-a-way car will claim it's safer and more fuel efficient because of the weight savings. It will eventually lead to having to recycle your car about every 10 years.

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