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The Internet Technology

Web Access Over Power Lines 456

Posted by samzenpus from the plug-in dept.
anaesthetica writes "The CSMonitor is reporting that power companies may now be able to break into the internet provider market, giving consumers a third option, outside of telephone and cable companies. From the article, "Broadband over Power Lines (BPL), with investments from big-name companies including Google and IBM, is beginning to move beyond small trial projects to deploying systems for large communities." Earthlink may offer BPL as soon as next year. Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios."
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Web Access Over Power Lines More

Web Access Over Power Lines

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  • Near first post (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kawahee ( 901497 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:07AM (#13346359) Homepage Journal
    I think that it's a good idea, but users won't be switching soon. The only thing that might encourage users to switch to the power providers is if they can provide a way better plan, or they just want the convenience of paying it off on their power bill.

    • Re:Near first post (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Sharth ( 621005 )
      or if it's, you know, cheaper?

      • Re:Near first post (Score:3, Interesting)

        by zxnos ( 813588 )
        i bet they would price it the same as the competition - maybe 5$ less. right now many locations (at least in, near and around my area) only have DSL or cable so it is hard to get companies to compete if they dont *have* to. if it is the same cost or cheaper than cable i would switch. hopefully enough other people will too. once the local companies lose enough subscribers there should, hopefully, be a price war.
    • Well, in my situation I am stuck with Cable. I don't have a land line phone (just cell, like many of my generation) and to get cable internet I have to have cable tv. That is fine by me- I want cable anyway, but this would at least give me a choice. If I wanted no phone or cable, just internet, then the power options would be great.
      • I'm sure that under the Power Companies, you have to buy electricity off of them as well. No electricity, no internet. So yeah, you'll be suckered in by them as well by paying for a service that you may not want.

  • Hams (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kevin_conaway ( 585204 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:08AM (#13346371) Homepage
    Recently BPL companies offered to "notch out" that part of the BPL signal that conflicts with ham broadcasts, but the controversy appears to be far from settled.

    The article was light on the details of why the hams are opposed to this, except for the issue of whether or not it will interfere with their signals. If the BPL companies are offering to NOT interfere with the signal, why is there still opposition?

    On another note, not to be a dick, but how can a bunch of hams form a "major" opposition against the power companies, IBM, Google etc?

    • Re:Hams (Score:3, Insightful)

      by LiquidCoooled ( 634315 )
      I would assume that the Ham radio users would be the first to know about disruption to their signals in the same way that us geeks are the first to know or care about SCO lawsuits.
      They will oppose anything which further clouds their airwaves.

      • Re:Hams (Score:5, Insightful)

        by op00to ( 219949 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:37AM (#13346520)
        I like your wording -- THEIR airwaves. Yes, the HAMS have first dibs on much of the contested bandwidth (after the military, of course).

        Many hams may be old and crusty, but they're not a group to give up easily.

        • Re:Hams (Score:2, Funny)

          by imsoclever ( 901691 )
          Some, however, are definetly soft and chewey.

        • Re:Hams (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Goody ( 23843 )
          I like your wording -- THEIR airwaves. Yes, the HAMS have first dibs on much of the contested bandwidth (after the military, of course).

          Hams use only 10% of the bandwidth. The rest is military, aeronautical, maritime, government, and shortwave broadcast.

          Something to keep in mind is that BPL doesn't actually use the wireless spectrum, it pollutes it because it can't keep the frequencies it uses within its medium (like cable and DSL). Otherwise, BPL could probably vie for a licensed frequency allocati

          • Re:Hams (Score:3, Interesting)

            by Winkhorst ( 743546 )
            Shortwave broadcasters are already complaining about noisy power lines. Listen to Allan Weiner sometime at 8:00 PM EDT on Friday evening on his station, WBCQ, at 7.415MHz. Even now he has to filter out a lot of garbage.

            • Re:Hams (Score:3, Informative)

              by Goody ( 23843 )
              Shortwave broadcasters are already complaining about noisy power lines. Listen to Allan Weiner sometime at 8:00 PM EDT on Friday evening on his station, WBCQ, at 7.415MHz. Even now he has to filter out a lot of garbage.

              Interference from BPL and power line transmission noise are two different things. Transmission noise which has plagued wireless services for decades can be cured with good line maintenance. BPL interference occurs even when the system is operating properly.

              BPL proponents claimed BPL w

    • Re:Hams (Score:5, Informative)

      by josecanuc ( 91 ) * on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:16AM (#13346420) Homepage Journal
      The opposition, even with the offer of notching the offending frequencies, is that the notches that have been demonstrated don't do enough.

      You could say it lessens the interference by 50% or so, and that's not enough because ANY increase in the "noise floor" (the background signal that exists on a frequency which a signal must overcome in order to be heard) makes it more difficult for ham radio operators to use the frequency spectrum that they are licensed to use.

      One solution would be for ham radio operators to just increase the power they use. Unfortunately, most hams operate (on HF anyway) at their full power capacity. Also many hams enjoy the challenge of low-power communications of 5W or less (worldwide communications are possible on under 5W).

      The principle of the thing is that why should a commercial venture be able to do the things that, so far, no one has been allowed to do: emit RF across such an immense spectrum of frequencies, including those for which others have what the FCC calls "primary" usage granted to them.

      The ARRL has said that they do support a Motorola solution because it does not add any interference to the ham radio frequencies. So not all BPL is bad. Ham radio operators are opposed to those that are bad.

      • Re:Hams (Score:2, Insightful)

        by RevengeOfPoopJuggler ( 872968 )
        many hams enjoy the challenge of low-power communications of 5W or less

        Well then they should love the challenge of trying to communicate with a higher "noise floor" ;)

        • Re:Hams (Score:3, Interesting)

          by josecanuc ( 91 ) *
          A very valid statement. Not one that most hams are willing to accept ;-)

          But then, hams are pretty vocal about keeping the status quo. The FCC has issued a statement that they intend to remove the morse code requirement from all levels of ham radio licensing.

          It's a firestorm in the hams-on-Internet world, as some are extremely vocal (with very poor grammar) about keeping "the rif-raf" out with the hurdle of a morse code test for the HF bands. You'd think the sky was falling...

          The FCC is discussing what kinds

        • It's NOT a noise floor problem... (Score:5, Interesting)

          by Svartalf ( 2997 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @12:32PM (#13348425) Homepage
          A weak signal right on top of an antenna will swamp a powerful one at a distance if the power levels are equal at the reciever. I can cripple a Ham or CB setup by simply leaving a little 9v powered transmitter (in the case of CB, a walkie-talkie dead-keyed on the channel of most offense...) nearby. You won't be able to hear ANYTHING on the reciever wherever you do this to- it was a common fix for some idiot running a Linear being a problem on the CB band- they could get out, but they couldn't recieve over the little walkie-talkie on their fav channel. They'd think there was something wrong with their rig and quit doing it typically.

          What the real big problem is that the BPL systems are largely interfering with a piece of spectrum that has really good propagation characteristics. It's used by everyone for emergency communications worldwide in the case of a disaster; not just Hams have a problem with this- FEMA and other orgs like them does too.

          What pisses me off about all of this is that there's no real need for this BS- BPL can be done, done well, and it won't interfere with any critical services when it's done.

          Corridor Systems [corridor.net] has developed signal launchers and repeater systems to allow them to transform each line on a pole into a 10+ Mbit segment using 802.11 technology. This is accomplished by turning each of the lines on a power pole into a G-line waveguide (yes, you CAN do that sort of thing) that propagates the microwaves from an 802.11 system along the surface of the wires...
      • Unfortunately, most hams operate (on HF anyway) at their full power capacity.

        Life's too short for QRP :)

    • Re:Hams (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:19AM (#13346440)
      here [arrl.org]
      is a graph of the licensed frequencies that some hams think that the unlicensed BPL technology will pollute (blacked out).

      Hams are fond of shortwave because it allows people to communicate around the globe (not only line-of-sight).

    • Re:Hams (Score:5, Informative)

      by querist ( 97166 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:21AM (#13346447) Homepage
      As an Amateur Radio Operator I think I may be able to answer this question.

      Firstly, there are a fairly large number of licensed operators. Not everyone is active in the hobby, but it is the number of licensed operators that the ARRL (American Radio Relay League -- Amateur Radio's main 'club', so to speak) uses when confronting the FCC and other regulatory bodies (including Congress) about issues that are a concern to Amateur Radio.

      Secondly, as previously reported on Slashdot (no, I cannot find the article at the moment) the BPL companies' attempts to "notch out" the part of the BPL signal that interferes with Amateur Radio transmissions have not been very effective.

      Thirdly, while BPL is certainly a good idea in theory, and I for one would welcome our new BPL overlords if they can dispose with the interference on the Amateur Radio bands, there are still technical details to work out before it can be used harmoniously in conjunction with existing services, including Amateur Radio.

      Remember, Amateur Radio serves a critical role during emergencies to provide communication when other means are not available. If those power lines go down there will be no interference, but what if they are still up and there is a major emergency? Also, many Amateur bands are close to other public service bands. Yes, I know that the police are using cell phones now, but unless there is something that allows the cell towers to give priority to the police phones over my phone they police may be unable to communicate in an emergency.

      I know our local ambulance service uses radio. So does our fire service. BPL will interfere with them as well, though not to the same extent because they are shorter range.

      A little interference is not such a big deal with shorter range communications like the local fire and ambulance, but when you are trying to push a signal across the country, that small amount of interference is a major issue.

      I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this, but such is life. These are the main issues to the best of my understanding. Again, I would love to see BPL work. I live out in the boonies and I can't even get cable, never mind DSL.

      • Re:Hams (Score:5, Informative)

        by hotdiggitydawg ( 881316 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:58AM (#13346618)
        unless there is something that allows the cell towers to give priority to the police phones over my phone they police may be unable to communicate in an emergency.

        In fact, that very point was recently demonstrated in London. From this article [com.com]:

        In the immediate aftermath, a statement from the U.K.'s largest network operator, Vodafone, said that an excessive number of calls had caused outages. The operator consequently set aside capacity for phone calls to emergency services.

        "Following the major incident in London today, Vodafone London switches are at capacity (which is very rare), so we're having to go into 'access overload' procedures, which means freeing up a proportion of capacity across London to ensure the police and emergency services can communicate," the company said.
      • When I was in the army there were some BPL performed. It was considered a fact that if BPL would be generally implemented the background noise within kilometers or tens of kilometers from powerlines the increase in background noise / interference would considerably reduce the maximum range of man-portable VHF radios.

        Electronic warfare would be even more badly hit as the devices used to gather radio intelligence can operate at the level of background interference.

      • Re:Hams (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Chanc_Gorkon ( 94133 ) <<moc.liamg> <ta> <nokrog>> on Thursday August 18, 2005 @09:08AM (#13346667)
        It's also more then just Amateur Radio and Police, Fire and Abulance radios that can be affected. You TV can be affected as well as AM/FM broadcast band. Has anyone here ever been living near a noisy (as in RF) powerline? Power companies are notorius for letting things get bad before the fix them. As long as the wire delivers power, they do not care if it spews RF all over the place. Notching the Ham band out will not be effective. The power company must not have heard of Harmonics.....sure the main signal is notched out but what about the harmonic of the signal? Harmonics is what is going to cause this to be a bigger then ham radio thing. Also, BPL is being promoted by the FCC to be able to bring broadband internet to rural America and that just ain't so. Rural users typically have older power delivery systems when compared to the urban folks and those are not always going to be able to carry BPL.

        The BIG reason power companies want BPL is so that THEY can use it for reading your meter. They want to make your electric meter to be adressable and able to be read over the internet. They also want to have teh transformers and what not be able to report their status over it as well. BPL is about cutting some costs for electrical companies and it's just a bonus that they can add ISP to thier hat as well.

        • Re:Hams (Score:5, Interesting)

          by thc69 ( 98798 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @09:48AM (#13346980) Homepage Journal
          querist wrote: If those power lines go down there will be no interference, but what if they are still up and there is a major emergency?

          Er...if BPL is up in said emergency, and ham fails, then why not just use the BPL connection?

          Also, consider that once BPL comes around, it probably won't be long before the same company sells digital phone over the same lines. Therefore, there will be internet and phone communications as long as BPL signal is up, and if lines or the signal are down, then ham can cut in.

          Then, Gorkon wrote: The BIG reason power companies want BPL is so that THEY can use it for reading your meter. They want to make your electric meter to be adressable and able to be read over the internet. They also want to have teh transformers and what not be able to report their status over it as well. BPL is about cutting some costs for electrical companies and it's just a bonus that they can add ISP to thier hat as well.

          Sounds great. I'd rather have them read my meter over the internet than have them snooping around in my yard. That's better privacy. Also, while meter readers will be out of a job, it will create IT jobs -- and IT labor demand benefits me, as well as many other slashdotters.

          And if I could get some competition for cable internet, which is the ONLY broadband available in my rural location...that sounds like a win-win-win situation! Damn the ham, full speed ahead!

      • Re:Hams (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Kythe ( 4779 )
        I would love to see BPL work. I live out in the boonies and I can't even get cable, never mind DSL.

        BPL would not be a solution for rural area access. BPL is not useable for long-haul communications: basically, providers need to get the signal almost there using fiber or ethernet (or some similar technology), then put it on the power lines.

        This makes BPL a useable, cost-effective technology when you're talking about a subdivision with a bunch of houses. But it's unlikely that a BPL provider would string a

    • Re:Hams (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Contrary to popular belief, we don't live in a military junta, and the law is honored. Spectrum has been allocated to the amateurs and it is the responsibility of the BPL providers to avoid stomping on it. The amateurs also have credibility, having provided the only available reliable communication during events such as the Florida hurricanes, eastern blackouts, and September 11th.

      The real problem w/ BPL is that using it for long haul requires a costly investment by the utilities that has not been discuss

    • Re:Hams (Score:5, Informative)

      by Artful Codger ( 245847 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:35AM (#13346511)
      The article was light on the details of why the hams are opposed to this, except for the issue of whether or not it will interfere with their signals. If the BPL companies are offering to NOT interfere with the signal, why is there still opposition?

      Because the current definition of "not interfering with" is based on fairly loose standards, because BPL noise could ruin the opportunity to use other parts of the RF spectrum in the future, but mainly because power-cabling is unshielded and currently so inefficient at broadband frequencies that they will initially have to use alot of signal, and radiation will be a given, regardless of what's promised.

      Think of this as background noise (eg like your neighbour's air conditioner). It may be quiet, but its noise still prevents you from hearing the birds clearly, the breeze in the trees, the buzz of the bees, etc. BPL radiation will reduce our ability to detect faint RF signals. When the extraterrestrials finally get around to thanking us for the LP on Voyager, we won't be able to hear them.

      On another note, not to be a dick, but how can a bunch of hams form a "major" opposition against the power companies, IBM, Google etc?

      Well, that's the problem. Maybe we need a "sierra club" or "greenpeace" to act as watchdogs on our RF spectrum...

      I do believe that BPL is probably inevitable, though... so, sometime in the future, when most of the power grid is adapted for this, and all new AC-powered devices have BPL filters built-in, then the BPL radiation should be less.
      • We have that. It's called the ARRL. In America at least. American Radio Relay League is our voice in congress. If your a ham, I advise you to join. There is strength im numbers.
    • We're opposed because harmonics from BPL would have made the 20m band useless. Matter of fact, it had harmonics that pretty much obliterated the amateur bands from 20m down to 70cm.

      KD1S
    • Well, we do have spectral allocations probably worth over a billion dollars and even our own satellites to start.

  • Apparently? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:09AM (#13346375)
    Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios.

    And anyone else who uses any kind of radio. BPL still has massive radio interference problems, fullstop. Every trial so far has resulted in cancellation of services because the interference ruins too many other things.

    Once again it'll be announced, it'll be trialled, it'll fail. I said it almost every other time someone else comes up with this too good to be true notion.

    • Re:Apparently? (Score:3, Informative)

      by ziploclogic ( 765424 )
      I listened to a topic on NPR this morning regarding these issues. Engineers have stated that radio interference has not been effectively prevented and that no trials have passed with favorable enough result to limit this type of interference. I'm curious what ideas are being kicked around to solve this problem.

    • Re:Apparently? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Crispin Glover ( 123499 )
      Cinergy is still running successful BPL trials here in Cincinnati with no complaints or signs of cancellation.

    • Cancellation? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Snags ( 18929 )
      Every trial so far has resulted in cancellation of services because the interference ruins too many other things.

      I've actually had BPL in the Allentown, PA area for a year now. What cancellation?

  • Sounds like a good thing (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mattkinabrewmindspri ( 538862 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:10AM (#13346382)
    because according to this report [freepress.net], this is sorely needed.

  • Lower Prices? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by J_Meller ( 667240 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:11AM (#13346383)
    Interesting article. The power companies may be just the competition the marketplace needs to bring down some of the prices associated with having too few (inferior) competitors. Imagine the power company offering a vonage like service as well. They could probably rope a bunch of people on the bill convienence alone.
    • HAH. They said that with Cable, opening up DSL, ISDN -- every time, it would 'bring the price down'. Right. If I pay $49.95 for my internet access, you can be pretty damn sure that's what the power company will want to charge.
  • If you look about the web, Australia has already announce trials [idg.com.au] in Canberra for it and in some other places the progress, I believe, is more advanced.

  • The Trinity (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:12AM (#13346391)
    Great, now instead of the Cable companies or Telephone companies having the stranglehold over my broadband connection, I got the Power companies too!

    Its like the Trinity of Evils controlling all of the Broadband access.

  • Always just a short time until... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by under_score ( 65824 ) <mishkin@be[ ]ig.com ['rte' in gap]> on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:12AM (#13346394) Homepage
    I've been reading slashdot articles about this for years, and it's always claimed to be just a short time away. I know that probably at some point it will actually be just a short time away... but is there any better reason to believe that this is it?
    • It will continue to take a long time, simply for the fact that most power companies are revenue-stability based. Venturing into broadband is a risky venture, one that shareholders of power-utility companies don't want to take.

  • 10 years ago (Score:5, Informative)

    by hachete ( 473378 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:13AM (#13346395) Homepage Journal
    This was mooted 14 years ago. I can't see any big changes. Bypassing the local transformers will still cost a shit-load of money.

    • Re:10 years ago (Score:5, Interesting)

      by eggstasy ( 458692 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @09:15AM (#13346706) Journal
      If by that you mean that getting broadband internet over powerlines is terribly difficult or expensive, I am happy to inform you that my own ISP here in Portugal has been offering powerline internet for ages at very attractive rates.
      http://www.oni220.pt/oni220.htm [oni220.pt]

      I'm told other european countries are also deploying it. The upstream is massive compared to similar ADSL offerings, instead of 8:1 it's a 2:1 ratio! Great for eMule :)

      Powerline internet is a very attractive option in countries where the telephone lines are owned by a giant monopolist telecom.

  • Third option?! (Score:3, Funny)

    by wbren ( 682133 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:14AM (#13346403) Homepage
    "The CSMonitor is reporting that power companies may now be able to break into the internet provider market, giving consumers a third option, outside of telephone and cable companies."
    My first and best option has always been satellite Internet service! I get blazing fast downloads at 20KBps and a low monthly bill of only $89.95. I don't need to use it on cloudy/rainy days anyway. Cable and DSL have always been a distant second and third. BPL might make it into the number four spot. Oh, and let's not forget about "Broadband over gas lines [nethercomm.com]"... that's at least my fifth or sixth pick.

  • BPL is great idea (Score:5, Informative)

    by el_womble ( 779715 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:14AM (#13346404) Homepage
    Provided they take down the exisiting powerlines and replace them with high tension co-ax. It's not just Ham radios that this will irritate, its everyone. The FCC and its international counterparts have restrictions on EM waves not just because they interfere with communications, but because they interfere with everything from aeroplane and medical electronics to cell division.
  • It's an interesting technology, for sure. According to the article, the signals are sent over a fiber optic network, whereas I would have expected that the signals would piggyback on the main electrical signal. If this is true, I'm not sure how it is different from the fiber optic lines available from the phone company. Maybe the power company has more lines available?

    But I think that the most significant hurdle to all of these broadband technologies is keeping the network running even in a disaster like
    • "But I think that the most significant hurdle to all of these broadband technologies is keeping the network running even in a disaster like an earthquake or hurricane. Power lines fall down, are torn off the poles by falling trees, and generally succumb to events that they should not encounter everyday. In a lot of places, power lines are run underground, which gives them added protection from above-ground disasters.

      Phone lines, too, are affected by such disasters, though in many places the lines are laid u
      • If you don't have power, it's unlikely you'll be able to use your computer. And if you have a laptop, what is powering your wireless router?

        Um...a UPS? Or small personal generator? An inverter hooked up through your car (I actually used this once for temporary power when the power was out in my house, in conjunction with a long extension cable, because I couldn't find a wired phone). All you have to do is think outside the box, and you could easily have power to your router/modem during an outage for

        • Um...a UPS? Or small personal generator? An inverter hooked up through your car (I actually used this once for temporary power when the power was out in my house, in conjunction with a long extension cable, because I couldn't find a wired phone). All you have to do is think outside the box, and you could easily have power to your router/modem during an outage for quite some time.

          But the question is, will your ISP's equipment still have power during this time? Having your modem power doesn't do any good

    • My understanding from the article was the 'the last mile' used fiber and that the long haul was done over power cables.

      A better plan would be to get the power companies to install fiber whenever they have to fix the power lines. Or to offer them a tax break if they'd start to install fiber on the overhead lines so that they could rent this dark fiber to the telcos, who could then put ISPs in place.

      BPL with actual power lines just isn't going to work - at least not without treading on A LOT of toes.
    • I'm not sure how it is different from the fiber optic lines available from the phone company. Maybe the power company has more lines available?

      Think of BPL in terms of "universal access". It's not so much for people in cities, who typically already have broadband and DSL to choose from. It's for the rural populous who don't have cable, and who live way too far from their CO to get DSL. (Last time I checked DSL is still limited to about 18,000 feet from the phone company's switch.) DSL in rural areas w

      • they could just to Fiber To The Premisis for rural - current FTTP prices in test markets are $40/month for phone, cable and data on one FTTP line

  • Ham Operators Know (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SenFo ( 761716 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:17AM (#13346429) Homepage
    "Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios."

    Of course. It's the ham operators that actually understand the potential for BPL to cause harmful RF interference. The rest of the world won't care until it affects them personally. Ignoring the advise of ham radio operators is like ignoring the advise of the bomb squad when there's a bomb in a subway. Ok, so it's not as drastic, but it's still quite silly.

  • Stability :- (Score:2, Funny)

    by Hammer ( 14284 )
    Considering that no one has yet managed to shut down 1/3 of North Americas cable or phone networks in one shot. Is BPL really such a good idea?? >:->

  • Not just HAM radio... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Knightsabre ( 101754 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:23AM (#13346454) Homepage Journal
    Yes, the Amateur Radio community is in opposition to BPL, due to the high degree of RFI (radio frequency interference) that BPL puts out. The problem that not as many people are talking about is that this will also affect many fire/rescue/police radio frequencies, which occupy the same radio spectrum as the BPL systems interfere with. This could potentially cause severe problems in emergency situations. So no, it's not just a bunch of us HAMs whining about BPL "ruining our hobby". We also interact with emergency personnel in emergency [arrl.org] situations [arrl.org], severe weather, natural disasters, and yes, even terrorist attacks [arrl.org].

  • Tradeoffs (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Iriel ( 810009 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:26AM (#13346467) Homepage
    I remember a reading a lot of /.ers talking about how BPL is infinately more feeble in comparison to things like fiber lines and other forms of broadband connections in the works. Now, though, news of BPL comes at a relatively opportune time:

    DSL carriers no longer have to share thier lines with everyone else, so all the little guys may whither and die. Here comes a new technology to rescue! And it comes through your powerlines! However...

    This idea still rubs me the wrong way when I think that a blackout will leave me without my desktop AND internet access through what's left of my laptop battery...
    • What happens in a normal blackout currently? Surely the communications would be powered by relays, which would be powered by local electricity and so be affected by the blackout anyway?
      • Standard analog phone lines (aka POTS) are powered by the telephone company from the central office (or from the nearest fiber concentrator if the line isn't copper all the way to the CO). The COs have standby power (battery banks and generators), so they can continue to provide POTS line power. In this area, BellSouth puts natural gas generators at the fiber concentrators so they can also continue to provide POTS line power.

        Some cell tower sites have generators to keep the node up as well. Around here t
    • Since a blackout would likely take out your upstream provider as well, having a battery backup wouldn't necessarily keep you online.

  • Already available in England (Score:4, Informative)

    by wellard1981 ( 699843 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:28AM (#13346478)
    Southen-Electric are already providing broadband over powerlines in some locations here in the South of England, and have been doing so for some time. The broadband side of the company are known as BlinkBroadband [blinkbroadband.co.uk].
    • No, that's incorrect.

      Blink Broadband is a rebadged-BT Wholesale ADSL offering. What they also offer is Homeplug-style in-house powerline networking (Blink Plug option). There is no WAN BPL producr.

      Scottish and Southern do have a BPL *trial* in place but only in 4 remote locations. AFAIK they have no plans for a national roll-out.

  • BT Line Rental (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Bob Bobbinson ( 574371 )
    I think the most interesting use of this would be here in the UK, as currently to get any form of internet connection you're pretty much locked in to a telephone company.

    If you want an xDSL you have to have a BT phone line, no two ways about it, this means that even if I want to exclusively use a service such as Vonage, or Skype I still have to pay the line rental for a phone line.

    If I could get BPL I wouldn't have to have the extra cost of a telephone line, and could freely use Skype, or Vonage for all
    • You're not tied to BT. For residential purposes you can choose Bulldog as your primary phone line supplier, and for commercial lines, Colt and Energis I believe can supply DSL with their own phone line instead of BT.

      Sure, a lot of the ISPs require a BT phone line, but some ISPs like Mailbox will even work with a bulldog line.

      As for cutting the phone line out entirely, I'm not sure I'd do that. Skype and Vonage don't work for emergency services calls when the power goes down, and as we saw on 7/7, your cell

  • Similar technology has been around (Score:4, Informative)

    by Sierpinski ( 266120 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:34AM (#13346506)
    This sounds strikingly similar to what X10 [x10.com] has been doing for a long time. Using a special outlet plug-in, you can control various fixtures (lights, fans, etc) via a remote control, as well as using a timer and motion-detectors. A friend of mine has been using X10 motion sensors in his house for a while now, so that his kitchen light comes on whenever anyone enters, and turns off 2-3 minutes afterward.

    I'm not up to par on the technology used in the X10 devices, but it can't be all that dissimilar to sending any kind of digital "internet" signal over the power lines as well. Actually I'm surprised it took this long to surface (granted I haven't been scouring the net looking for this information either.)

  • powerline dead in germany for years (Score:5, Informative)

    by dunkelfalke ( 91624 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:35AM (#13346510)
    RWE, a very big electricity company in Germany used to sell powerline internet access in towns Essen and Muelheim an der Ruhr in july 2001. It only lasted until september 2002.

    According to RWE it was shut down because some frequencies used by powerline were reserved for security services. The real reason was though that almost nobody used it - RWE had only some 200 paying customers - because internet access via ADSL was much cheaper and in both Muelheim (I used to live there back then) and Essen widely availiable.

  • Old News (Score:4, Informative)

    by Snags ( 18929 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:42AM (#13346547) Journal
    When behind-the-times media outlets cover old news, Slashdot shouldn't help them make it sound state-of-the-art. Even a cursory search of slashdot for BPL turns up:

  • More than Web (Score:3, Funny)

    by Nyhm ( 645982 ) * on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:43AM (#13346550)
    "Web Access Over Power Lines" ... why, whith an Internet Protocol (IP) packet exchange capability this technology could provide any Internet service, not just HTTP Web access! (Please mod +1 Insightful)

    Editorial note: Read with heavy sarcasm
    • Am I to take this as a statment that the Internet could be more then just the http protocol for the web?

      One could only dream of the exotic applications:

      o The ability to use some sort of "terminal" application and access remote *nix based computers using text
      o The use of some otherwise abandoned ports to quicky and effiectly distrubte and pull files from
      o A simpler form of transfering files from a server using some sort of "file transfer protocol"
      o The ability to talk in real time to others using text or wit
  • Beware the powerful ham radio lobby! They pwn congress!

  • See and hear BPL interference (Score:3, Informative)

    by wherley ( 42799 ) * on Thursday August 18, 2005 @08:50AM (#13346589)
    the AARL has a collection of video and sound files demonstrating BPL interference.
    Vid:
    http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.html [arrl.org]
    Sound: http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.html #Audio [arrl.org]

  • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • i use it ... i like it (Score:2, Informative)

    by ren-tzu ( 160502 )
    My little corner of the world was just graced with this technology a little over a year ago through a partnership with Cinergy (power company) and Current Braodband (the ISP).

    As a long time user of cable broadband, I've listed my top three pics for "best parts of this technology".

    1) Most homes have a great deal more power outlets than phone or cable outlets. This greatly increases the chance that you won't have to run cable across your room to your desktop/wireless router.

    2) I get to see the people's faces
    • Like the tides of the ocean you can be assured of one constant thing. The price won't stay at 30$ but rise, rise, rise.

      Sure the price is low now, demand is low as well. low demand, low price. See how that works?

      Also, you can do BPL locally. There are bridges you can buy that put ethernet over the power wires in your home. You get like 5mbps for your troubles [or whatever it is] which is ok to surf the web but if you have file shares it's VERY SLOW.

      CAT-5E is easy to route and can get you several hundred

  • We have it here in Linz, Austria, and it's crap (Score:3, Interesting)

    by quigonn ( 80360 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @09:02AM (#13346640) Homepage
    Linz AG, the local electricity provider, sells it, but it's really slow and expensive compared to other ISPs.

    The fastest thing you get is 768/375 kbps up/down, costing you EUR 69,- per month. Compared to that, Liwest, a local cable TV/internet provider, gives you 6/1.5 mbps up/down for the same money.

    Another negative side effect is that certain radio frequency are being disturbed by it, and Linz AG tried suing people that put measurement results of these disturbances online.

  • We don't NEED it! (Score:3, Informative)

    by starsoverbama ( 745132 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @09:05AM (#13346653)
    Ever heard of WIMAX? BPL is an not needed, not cost effective, and a poorly engineered solution to the problem. And the hams are right...
  • Sadly, back in 1999 I sat next to a guy on a flight who was telling me "I have a new technology that will allow you to send high-speed Internet over power lines. I just got the patent, now I'm looking for investors."

    I thought to myself "Wow...he might actually sucker someone into investing in this wild idea" and laughted it off. I certainly had an attack of the dumb-shits that day.
  • The technical side of the article is too simple. It almost appear like you can just connect the power cable to the internet, and then you have everyone online. This is defiantly not the case.

    When two computers connect to each other they attach themselves to a complex network of routers. It's not "One-big-line" out there. There needs to be fitted routers into the power cables in order to manage handshaking etc. by the devices connecting to the cable. If this is not done, the cable will only have a certain ma

  • Security, anyone? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ugen ( 93902 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @09:23AM (#13346749)
    BTW, what is the protection of the data signal transmitted over an electric wire? Clearly the signal is emitted far and wide and can be easily intercepted and decoded. This is very much unlike any other wired transmission medium where signals are well contained. Even satellite connection is somewhat narrowly directed and pointed upwards. Here your web browsing session will be available for 100s of miles along the path of those power lines, in places with easy access. Just set up a tent, open a laptop with proper antenna and enjoy.

    The power companies that implement this would have to provide significant signal encryption well beyond anything that is currently done by other carriers.
  • http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/aud-vid.htm l [arrl.org]

    Video and audio recordings of BPL interference in the Americas, Europe, Asia, etc.

    It's not just the HAMs fighting this...many emergency response teams still rely on older, lower-frequency, long-range communication networks (instead of the relatively short-range digital networks of municipal locales), and the interference to those services is as disruptive to their systems as this "noise" is to Amateur Radio.

  • AHidden Reason for BPL (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ec_hack ( 247907 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @10:10AM (#13347174)
    From the article:
    With BPL, utilities can quickly identify where outages have taken place, read meters remotely, and conduct preventive maintenance, such as replacing a transformer before it fails, by monitoring unusual "noise" on the system.
    One of the real reasons for this is the remote meter reading capability. It eliminates the need for manual meter reading (or, for places with remote read systems, to have a van drive by getting the data.) But, it allows this camel's nose into the tent: the meter will be smart enough to allow time-of-day-based rates for electricity, like large commercial customers already pay. You'll pay more for usage during peak hours, less for off-peak use. Note: this is fair, as during peak times, electricity often is generated using higher-cost sources such as natural gas plants.

  • Cinergy (Cincinnati Area BPL) (Score:3, Informative)

    by skrowl ( 100307 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @11:12AM (#13347766) Homepage
    I live in the Cincinnati area and have been patiently waiting for the Cinergy (our local power company) BPL service to be deployed to my area. My message to anyone waiting for BPL to come to their area: DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH!!

    Cinergy had a huge multi-year beta test, followed by a production rollout.... that ONLY covered the area that the beta test did. That was over a year ago, since then, they've yet to expand their coverage area AT ALL.

    It sounds too good to be true at $35 for 3mbit SYMETRICAL (no more DSL/Cable 20x download that you have for upload BS)

    Current (The ISP that cinergy partnered with):
    http://www.current.net/ServiceAndPricing/Residenti al/PricingAndBenefits/ [current.net]

    Press release from Cinergy:
    http://www.cinergy.com/News/default_corporate_news .asp?news_id=420 [cinergy.com]

    Recent investment in Cinergy BPL by Google:
    http://news.com.com/Google+invests+in+power-line+b roadband/2100-1036_3-5777917.html [com.com]

  • BPL a HAMs prespective (Score:5, Informative)

    by Nonillion ( 266505 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @11:22AM (#13347861)
    As a licensed amateur radio operator I was beside myself when the FCC gave BPL deployment the green light. It proved to me that none of the commissioners have ANY technical competence at all, and that any decision right or wrong is made entirely for political reasons.

    Current BPL technology is a kludge at best, it is the equivalent of duct tape and bailing wire. The interference that is created doesn't just effect the ham bands, it effects every service that is found between 1.8-80 MHz. The "interference mitigation" card is pure bull shit. For non hams how would you feel if I developed a Internet delivery method that disrupted your cell phone service? And every time you attempted to use your cell phone you disrupted your neighbors Internet access.

    BPL is a bad idea, the laws of physics will never make it viable or economical, how many of you would get pissed off if I was constantly disrupting your Internet service for minutes or hours with my HF transceiver when I drive through town, I know I would.

  • Canaries (Score:3, Informative)

    by leighklotz ( 192300 ) on Thursday August 18, 2005 @01:31PM (#13349009) Homepage
    >Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios.

    Hams are just canaries in this fight, not villains.

    BPL has been shown to cause radio interference to all users, amateur, military, and commercial. Michael Powell, then FCC chairman, squashed a report from the NTIA that said it cause [cq-vhf.com]interference>/a, and the FCC required that frequencies allocated to government use be "notched out." That leaves just us citizens unprotected and ungagged (at least for now).

    And before you say that HF radio isn't necessary anymore, and everyone who is anyone uses cell phones (of if they have buckets of money Iridium satphones) take a look at just one of thousands of uses, NOPAC [faa.gov]. Last night on 10.148 Mhz (square in the middle of the band that BPL trashes), I heard a Singapore Airlines flight over the Pacific contacting a NOPAC control station in Alaska asking for route planning information, right on the heels of a JAL flight doing the same thing. The NOPAC instructions have detailed accounts of how to use HF radio when over the Pacific, which is what I heard last night.

    Finally, the FCC didn't grant any license to BPL systems. Instead, it said that they would be allowed under Part 15 regulations. Those are the same regulations that govern radio controlled cars; in essence, they're allowed to use low power if they don't cause interference and if they accept interference. The NTIA and others argued that BPL was fundamentally different from a kid with a radio controlled car on 27Mhz, because BPL will be widespread both geographically and in spectrum -- occupying the entire area beteween 2MHz and 80Mhz.

    The result: a few critical government frequencies get notched out, and everybody else gets told to call the power company and complain "if" there is any problem. And in the few test cases where this has happened, even in test trials, getting the power company to do anything has taken months, and only a few even tried, and of those few that tried, all but about three had to discontinue the project becuase they couldn't resolve the Part 15 complaints.

    So yes, it hasn't happened widespread yet, and it hasn't caused widespread problems yet, but don't blame the people who are technically savvy enough to see what's going to happen.

    And finally, don't you think it's strange that energy companies are getting a big help from the current administration to get into the ISP business? I mean, it's not like there's any connection between energy companies and the Bush administration, is there?

    If you want fiber, push on getting fiber.

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