Mozilla Severs Netscape News Legacy 133
Juha-Matti Laurio writes "After years of official separation, Mozilla is just now shaking off some of the last vestiges of its parental association with Netscape. From the article: 'Mozilla's Usenet public newsgroups have been moved from netscape.public.mozilla.* to just mozilla.*. The renaming officially ends Mozilla's public Netscape news legacy after more than 8 years of active use. Most of the approximately 63 different newsgroups that began with the old moniker have now been officially abandoned.' Related: Earlier this week Netscape Communications released version 8.1 of its Netscape Browser."
Includes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Includes (Score:4, Interesting)
http://browser.netscape.com/ns8/download/archive.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Includes (Score:1, Interesting)
What was funny is that I fired up Netscape, hit my my company's Citrix secure gateway, and it handled the new ssl certificate from Thawte no problem, insalled without a hitch! This
You can do better than that (was Re:Includes) (Score:2)
At least go for the oldest version they have available: 3.04 [netscape.com].
Or the newest version that will run on 16-bit Windows 3.1: 4.08 [netscape.com].
Anyone know the last version to run on a 68000 based Mac?
Anyone have a copy of Mozilla from before it was called Netscape?
Re:Includes (Score:1)
Regardless, Netscape has evolved purposely. The shell of the Netscape browser you now see bundled with all kinds of other software is just a marketing piece based on the new successor, (same gecko engine internals as Firefox). Th
Re:Includes (Score:1, Funny)
Hey... given that analogy, they should call it Phoenix! I can't believe no one has thought of that yet.
Re:Includes (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Includes (Score:2)
Re:Includes (Score:2)
Re:Includes (Score:1)
they will use that to market Netscape and Google related tools?
System requirements (Score:2)
Finally (Score:5, Insightful)
It caused problems back before even Netscape 6 was released. The newsgroups were intended for developers, but because they were called "netscape.public.mozilla.x" they would get loads of noise from people looking for help with Netscape 4. Thats died down now, or at least moved on to questions about Firefox. Having said that, I'm a fan of what Mozilla.org has done, and if the names of their newsgroups are my biggest criticism of them then they must be doing something right.
This change should also help reduce the amount of spam on the newsgroups, since they will only be accessible through the mozilla news server and google groups
Re:Finally (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Finally (Score:2)
Re:Finally (Score:1)
In a world, seemingly the one that the 'Firefox Community' wants, where content creation is restricted to vi hackers and people who buy FrontPage, the 'web browser' becomes a pretty-button-clicky consumer-only thing. Which is really disappointing.
It's a good thing with classic Netscape, and classic Mozilla, that a WYSIWYG HTML editor is installed by default. It's a simple step to point out to someone that a program they can use to easily CREATE web c
shades of Dr. Evil (Score:5, Funny)
Under the Ballmer-McBride thesis that open source is evil, Netscape is Scotty and Mozilla is Mini Me:
Netscape, you're semi-evil. You're quasi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil. Just one calorie, not evil enough!
Times have changed. (Score:3, Insightful)
While is sad to see Netscape fizzle away, it was the browser that took on IE and fought the good fight. Mozilla and Firefox are the next evolution in the fight against IE. There is one constant in this universe though and that is Internet Explorer :( Hopefully this stiff competition will make IE a good browser once again.
http://religiousfreaks.com/ [religiousfreaks.com]Uh, what? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And WTF are you smoking? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:5, Informative)
You don't really believe that Microsoft invented the web browser, do you? When Netscape was born, Bill Gates didn't even think the internet was particularly important. And Netscape was just building on the university-developed NCSA Mosaic browser.
Back in the mid-90s, Netscape was THE dominant browser. But it got stagnant as the corporation tried to figure out how to make money off of it. Meanwhile, Microsoft built a browser that was comparable in quality (neither one was great), and used it's monopolistic position - combined with some rather unethical tactics - to grab users away from Netscape.
Re:Times have changed. (Score:4, Insightful)
While there is an element of truth in that, Netscape was more responsible for its downfall than Microsoft was. They made a lot of poor decisions, and failed to make the browser experience better, instead preferring to get into a feature war with IE, one they were ultimately to lose.
A good example of this was Netscape not working with roaming profiles. At my place of work (before my time, but I've discussed it at length with my colleague) they were unable to use Netscape because of this. Numerous discussions with the company resulted in nothing productive - they just weren't interested. That was responsible for a good number of enterprises switching to IE.
The Mozilla foundation have so far done a good job on focusing on making the browser better, adhering to standards (yes, they still have some way to go) and making the user the focus. Lets hope they continue this way, esepcially when IE 7 is released. I'd hate to see another feature war break out.
Breathing (Score:5, Insightful)
Netscape used to be able to charge corporations money to use their browser.
When Microsoft gave away IE for free, it cut off Netscape's revenue source. I blame the downfall in software quality on Netscape's inability to find a new revenue stream.
Or to put it another way... even if they implemented roaming profiles, you'd still be paying Microsoft and not paying Netscape.
Re:Breathing (Score:4, Informative)
Well, that's true, but let's not forget that Netscape's REAL business was Enterprise server software. The rise of Apache had a lot more to do with Netscape's poor finances than the rise of IE did.
In conclusion:
+ Netscape browser gets beat down by IE
+ Netscape web server loses against Apache and IIS
+ Netscape groupware gets squeezed off the map by MS Exchange and IBM Notes
+ Netscape application server (Kiva) gets overwhelmed by Java stuff like BEA and WebSphere
Endgame: Netscape ends up a as a lame portal company.
Re:Breathing (Score:1)
The praise heaped on the Netscape corporation by some people who see all evil emanating only from Microsoft is disappointing. That people insist on distorting the real history to make Microsoft the ONLY villan is even more disappointing. There isn't even a shallow profit-driven business case for distorting the history anymore.
Re:Breathing (Score:1)
It's really the other way around. Microsoft tried to hijack the web by introducing a lot of MSIE-centric tags and making those features VERY accessible - nay, desirable - to most so-called "web designers/web developers" in Frontpage. Marquee anyone?
Re:Breathing (Score:2)
It was always questioned if Nutscrape was about the standardization process, or if they were just mailing in specs so that they could claim that everything they did was "pending W3C certification" (when most of it really wasn't).
In other news.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:In other news.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In other news.... (Score:1)
You say that as if its a good thing. Besides thin clients are nothing novel. They serve their purpose in certain environments, but for home use would be horrible. My cab
Re:In other news.... (Score:2)
Re:In other news.... (Score:1)
Re:In other news.... (Score:2)
Re:In other news.... (Score:3, Funny)
> Bullshit.. I remember that mystical feeling of the early days of surfing the net, in a library, way back in 1994, with Nescape 1.0.
You couldn't possibly remember that, you have a 6-digit user ID.
boring rehash (Score:2)
You don't remember a little anti-trust trial do you?
IE has yet to deliver a decent browsing experience. Others, having failed to learn from Netscape's demise that it's not possible to do business on M$, have improved IE with p
Re:boring rehash (Score:1, Insightful)
How could we forget. It allowed Netscape's founders to make a lot more money selling the company then they would have made if MS had never entered the browser market. Competition was inevitable, they were just lucky it came from a company with a lot of legal baggage so they could play the victim card and sell the legal candy to AOL for big bucks.
Re:boring rehash (Score:2)
Re:boring rehash (Score:1)
Re:boring rehash (Score:3, Informative)
Grab.
Re:Netscape lacked roaming profiles? (Score:1)
As far back as I can remember, Netscape profiles could be shared across Unix machines using NFS, and I presume the windows counterpart also worked the same. File locking was in place to prevent the profile being trashed. And then in version 4.5 (October 1998), Netscape allowed the profile, including calanders, to be stored on a central server using Internet protocols. It was not until many years later that Exchange offered the same level of functio
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:3, Funny)
The latter picks up a really really big sword, tears one arm and one leg off of its clothes, makes itself look as female as possible, and says "..." a lot.
Victory is then assured.
Re:Times have changed. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
They, however, paid for it, instead of just stealing the developer team, like Netscape.
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:2)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
Further, his pompous 'we will take over the desktop' grandstanding was the red cloth that riled up the Microsoft bull. The man is an egotistical ass. Unfortunately, egotistical asses like him are sometimes necessary to kickstart a project. But there's no need to distort history to give him more credit than warranted after-the-fact. The man is a dud, tech-wise. Perfe
Re:Times have changed. (Score:5, Interesting)
with the later 3.x versions, and especially with the evil 4.x ones, Netscape Navigator managed to evolve into a PIG of browser.
He used to have netscape installed on 64Mbyte machines in the university datacenter, and people BEGGED the admins to allow the use of IE5, just because netscape 4.73 was slow, and when it wasnt slow, it was buggy, or crashed, or swapped around like crazy.
It took the mozilla developers 2+years plus a complete change of the rendering engine to somehow salvage the trainwreck netscape navigator had become.
Re:Times have changed. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
It's also paralleled by KDE with KHTML, and OSX with Webkit.
Re:Times have changed. (Score:2)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:2)
Not to mention those damned fonts. Anybody remember Netscape 4.02 for Solaris?
*shudder*
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:2)
which became IE. After a brief success, it lost, begat Mozilla and
started a long guerilla war.
Quite similar to how Unix took on VMS which became Win NT. After
some not so brief success of Unix, Win NT started to kick Unix' butt.
Unix begat several OSS children (Linux having highest profile).
Unix was never quite defeated so the war is more of an open combat
type today.
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
Interestingly enough, only one of my browsers contains the following text in its About dialog:
Guess which one.
Re:Times have changed. (Score:2)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:1)
They get some points for being the first, but they just seemed to have lost sight of the purpose of the app.
Reality distortion field.... (Score:2)
Tons of webpages used their propritary tags, and those stupid "use netscape 2.x" tags were more common than any IE-only bias that followed later. As long as netscape had 95%+ market share, they werent nice guys in any way (or why would they have invented the blink tag, and the frame creep?)
Re:Times have changed. (Score:3, Informative)
Correct if you mean 'Mozilla the foundation'. The Mozilla suite is dead and will see no further development by the Mozilla foundation. It's now an independent community project called Seamonkey. If I read the news groups correctly the team is substanitally the same one responsible for the old suite. See: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/ [mozilla.org] The best bet is one of the nightly build releases under the 'contrib' branch of the trunk tree. Gecko/20060116 SeaM
Re:Times have changed. (Score:2)
Internet Explorer as universal constant? (Score:1)
I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder if this means they'll slowly start to rid themselves of the "NS" prefix that's everywhere inside the code base...
All XPCOM interfaces start with "nsI," cross-platform support is based on the "Netscape Portable Runtime," most functions start with "NS_"...
I wonder if they have any plans to slowly transition over to "mozI" or "Moz_"? Somehow I doubt it (massive plugin breakage), but still - the remains of Netscape are still all over the code.
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:5, Interesting)
That's a massive job, even if done slowly. I don't think it'll happen, specially because it would mean constantly breaking pending patches and blocking access to different groups of files at given times. It would also break common code between other Mozilla and Mozilla-related technologies, like Seamonkey or Camino. It's good that bugs fixed on one app can be easily migrated to the other. I think the ns is there to stay, just like the Kung Fu Death Grip [mozilla.org] and such. It doesn't do much harm, anyway. A little annoyance to developers.
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:2, Insightful)
Camino (Score:2, Insightful)
Why consider the prefix to be an annoyance?
Because on the Mac OS X platform, NS meaning Netscape conflicts with NS meaning NextStep.
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:1)
I agree. Netscape was a pioneer browser and a very important piece of Internet history, as well as the predecessor of one of the greatest current browsers, the greatest IMO. All I'm saying is that now Mozilla and Firefox are different entities that Netscape, and their code should reflect that.
It's also a matter of consistency. Maybe not now, but in the future young people who want to contribute to the proj
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:1)
just like the Kung Fu Death Grip and such.
What is that exactly? I tried your link, and a google search, but I cannot find what it actually means.
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:1)
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:4, Informative)
Try an LXR search [mozilla.org]. Generally speaking, kungFuDeathGrip is used (as Pneuma ROCKS guessed) to ensure that reference counts are kept above 0 during a code path. A good example is in libpr0n [mozilla.org], where the comment kind of explains what they're doing.
In XPCOM (and COM), objects have reference counts. When the reference count reaches 0, the object is destroyed. The reference count is incremented any time a block of code takes a reference to the object, and is decremented whenever a block of code releases that reference.
Occasionally there are places where the reference count is potentially 1, and a certain function call may reduce it to 0 (thereby destroying the object) before the object is really ready to be destroyed. In that case, the Mozilla codebase grabs a kungFuDeathGrip on the object (increasing the ref count by 1) until it's really safe to release the object.
Generally speaking this occurs when an object (event source) makes a callback on another object with a refcount of 1 (event handler), and the event handler removes itself from the event source - reducing its refcount to 0. However, if the event handler isn't complete yet (still has some cleanup), then they need to grab a kungFuDeathGrip to ensure that the object isn't destroyed before it's ready to be destroyed.
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:3, Interesting)
Probably not, for the reasons stated, just as I don't expect another company [apple.com] to get rid of its "NS" prefix in its code [apple.com] to sever itself from that code's history [wikipedia.org].
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:3, Funny)
Yeppers, w3c-blessed DOM standard has most functions duplicated with
"NS" version, like createAttribute and createAttributeNS.
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:3, Interesting)
Simply change the way you read it...
Re:I wonder when they'll get rid of "ns*" then... (Score:1)
Edit > Replace > Find what: NS_, Replace with: Moz_ > Enter
Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
At the time, their HTLM editor had no spell checker and I was trying integrate a third-party solution for a customer. I tried to talk to some of their developer relations folk to get some help. They refused to give up the clipboard format and I didn't have the chops at the time to reverse engineer it. At that time, I told them I believed that MSFT would eventually eat their lunch, seeing as how they treated their developers pretty well.
Whether or not that was a significant contribution to their current state, the prediction worked out.
Funny how the give-aways outlast the companies.
Re:Funny... (Score:1)
Spellchecker... (Score:4, Funny)
Still using that version? :-) (I have no right to throw stones - I knw!)
Netscape's still around (Score:5, Interesting)
They are still around? They dont really fit into the "browser wars" at all.
Actually they do. Even though they're not the browser anymore, they're still involved - If you're using Bugzilla, that's a Netscape product - and it's in Firefox. Netscape is a Mozilla-based product right now, and Mozilla only exists because Netscape opened its source.
Netscape is a case study in how to fritter away a brand. It wasn't that long ago in real time that Netscape had THE browser and THE portal. Then they tried to release "do everything" browser packages, networking systems, and a whole slew of other things which they really botched. AOL buying them didn't help in the least, since AOL didn't have a clue as to what to do with them. About the only thing they did right was to release their code base, and that was more an act of desperation than anything else. It took a long time for Mozilla to straighten out the mess. Now it's finally looking much better, and FireFox and Thunderbird are what Netscape should have been.
More bad naming structure (Score:5, Interesting)
Should be comp.mozilla, not top-level Mozilla. There's also a comp.infosystems.www hierarchy, which would seem a better place.
Think of the typical Windows Start menu, and what a mess it is because companies keep sticking their name in it rather than the name of the product or anything tied to the product's purpose. Usenet has gone the same way unfortunately.
Cheers,
Ian
Re:More bad naming structure (Score:1)
Er...just pure bad nomenclature that was supposed to read.
Cheers,
Ian
Re:More bad naming structure (Score:2, Interesting)
It's done when the organization (companies, universities, etc) needs to be authoritative (or even authoritarian) about the various sub-groups under their hierarchy, and doesn't want to have to go through the Big-8 process for creating a new group every time they suddenly need a mozilla.plug-ins.bustamove or something.
Re:More bad naming structure (Score:2)
Relegating their set of newsgroups under comp.* (one of the Big 8 hierarchies) would render it subject to their newsgroup creation procedures [killfile.org] which involves an eleborate public voting process. That is fine for public newsgroups but not appropriate for a set of groups belonging to and managed by a specific organization.
Essentially these are simply local newsgroups that the Mozilla organization has chosen to distribute around the net. They could have started web forums but this way you can read their groups
Not Quit Yet (Score:1)
Re:Not Quit Yet (Score:1)
Re:Netscape (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Netscape (Score:4, Informative)
Or you can get a similar effect in Firefox on windows using the IE Tab extension. Can be very handy.
Re:Netscape (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Netscape (Score:2)
I don't know where you got that idea, but Netscape still uses Gecko (the Mozilla/Firefox rendering engine).
Re:Netscape (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Netscape (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Netscape (Score:2)
Re:Netscape (Score:2)
Re:Netscape (Score:4, Interesting)
i dunno about netscape 8 but i hear it uses the IE rendering engine by default.
Re:Netscape (Score:1)
Its best at 4.x!
Netscape 4.x was evil, unless you disabled JavaScript. 3.x was better. In fact, Netscape 4.x was so bad it made me use IE4.
Re:Netscape (Score:1)
Dear Audal (Score:2, Funny)
You seem to have a lot of drive and enthusiasm, which is obviously not finding a productive outlet, have you thought about getting some part-time work in IT? Perhaps try doing some volunteer work!
Maybe you've not yet graduated and are going through that 'difficult' stage. Girls don't seem to like you, the sporty kids bully you. We've all been there, it'll pass. The simple fact that is girls mature faster than boys.
In a few years, you'll look back on these days and laugh!
Anyway, take care.
AC.
Re:Dear Audal (Score:2, Funny)
You shouldn't talk to yourself.
Sincerely,
AC
Re:Ironic (Score:4, Informative)
Nope... Netscape was meant to be a Mosaic-killer (Mosaic + godzilla = Mozilla)
Re:Ironic (Score:2)