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KDE's Version Timing Drops It In Ubuntu Support Priority

Zonk posted about 7 years ago | from the not-tomorrow-but-soon dept.

KDE 187

News.com is reporting that the next version of Ubuntu will see KDE unsupported, but only for the time being. Because of the dramatic changeover from KDE 3.5 to 4.0, Ubuntu sponsor Canonical is unwilling to initially support the popular Linux GUI. Gnome will still be supported, and the company expects to return support to kubuntu soon. "Developer interest is focused on KDE 4.0, but it's not mature enough yet to use in the next KDE-based variation of Ubuntu, called Kubuntu, Scott James Remnant, leader of the Ubuntu Desktop team, said in an explanation to a Kubuntu mailing list. But most Kubuntu developers adding features "upstream" of today's products are focused on KDE 4.0, meaning that it's risky to release a long-term support version based on 3.5."

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News? (0, Offtopic)

dropadrop (1057046) | about 7 years ago | (#21851850)

I don't get the point of this article. So it's not time for a new release of kubuntu, and this is news?

Re:News? (4, Insightful)

BlueParrot (965239) | about 7 years ago | (#21851868)

Previously kubuntu release have been synchronous with the ubuntu releases, this decision breaks that pattern which is why it is news. It looks as if ubuntu and kubuntu may actually diverge enough to become separate distributions.

Re:News? (1)

h4rm0ny (722443) | about 7 years ago | (#21852086)

Oh fantastic. No kidding - guess what I decided to install on my new computer this afternoon! :D

Re:News? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852754)

Windows? Mac OS X? Fedora? Ubuntu? Mandriva? Slackware?

Kubuntu 8.04 still coming (3, Informative)

HeroreV (869368) | about 7 years ago | (#21853154)

Kubuntu 8.04 is still planned to be released alongside Ubuntu 8.04, just without long-term service as previously planned. That just means the Gnome stuff in 8.04 will receive security updates longer than the KDE stuff in 8.04.

LTS (1)

imtheguru (625011) | about 7 years ago | (#21852560)

It relates to Long term support. KDE delayed the release of 4.0 for ubuntu 7.10 (october). It cannot thus be included in the LTS version coming out next year. This is mostly KDE's own fault for not meeting their projected deadlines.


Re:LTS (1)

armanox (826486) | about 7 years ago | (#21852874)

Aside from needing to delay the release to increase stability.......(Sorta like how MS pushed XP and Vista out when they needed more work)

Re:LTS (4, Informative)

mabhatter654 (561290) | about 7 years ago | (#21852998)

or rather KED is "done when it's done" and Ubuntu needs a full cycle of completion before they'll claim LTS status for KED 4. In this case KDE 4 will only have been released 3 months before Canonical has to make a decision on wether to be tied to that release for 5 years. Ubuntu is much smaller than Red Hat or Suse and they don't want to play the games of supporting backports and cross-grades like done with the various boxed versions of Suse or RHEL. They waited until an odd time to release that's on nobody else's schedule.. The more politically correct thing might be to delay the LTS release in general then fewer feelings would be hurt.

The situation is not that KDE 4 is "not supported" but the combo in 8.04 will include BOTH 3.5 and 4.0! but only for the standard 18 months. Then the 8.10 will be fully supported for 4.0 only and probably LTS as well. It's a matter of Canonical not wanting to be tied up supporting bleeding edge releases just yet. Remember, Red Hat and Suse don't SUPPORT the free versions for customers, only the carefully limited pay-for versions and if you go "off the reservation" with upstream updates, they tell you to reinstall the base just like other commercial OS vendors do. Part of the Ubuntu experience is that there is no artificial divide between the "open source" and the "tweaked" versions.. it's their stated interest to work CLOSER to the upstream source, not wall their stuff off to versions they have to babysit for 5 years like RH or Suse has.


Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21853176)

What's this "KED" thing you keep speaking of? I've never heard of it before.

Not suprising (4, Informative)

proudfoot (1096177) | about 7 years ago | (#21851860)

The next version of Kubuntu/Ubuntu would have been an LTS, which means that it would be aimed at those who expected a long life out of an operating system, such as enterprise users.
KDE 4.0, in its current, and rather buggy state, does not fit the bill.

Re:Not suprising (1)

FudRucker (866063) | about 7 years ago | (#21851906)

ubuntu is trying to run the latest bleeding edge too much, kde-3.5.8 is still plenty good for several more years...

Re:Not suprising (4, Informative)

phoenix.bam! (642635) | about 7 years ago | (#21852004)

KDE 3.5 will be perfectly usable for many more years, but people working on the Kubuntu project have moved to KDE4 for the most part. Considering they are volunteers it is perfectly reasonable for them to do so. But without anyone working on the packages, Kubuntu can't release a long term support version of Kubuntu with KDE 3.5. There just isn't anyone around to maintain it.

Re:Not suprising (1)

Locutus (9039) | about 7 years ago | (#21852224)

considering that Ubuntu's LTS means security fixes and not application updates, you'd think that they could swing a deal with KDE people or even the Kubuntu people to ship KDE3 and just provide bug fixes as REQUIRED. Missing out on such a large market is not going to be a good thing for KDE. After all, many of the 'big' distro's are gnome based now and losing any more ground could hurt.

That is if Canonical is really moving anywhere with the LTS kits. Three years is a long time to miss out on.


Re:Not suprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852572)

Why should the KDE crew "make a deal"?

If they've (KDE) decided that its better to focus their limited resources on 4.0, that's their right. Or, as better stated in TFA:

Canonical, which sponsors Ubuntu and is trying to make a business of selling the support contracts


"LTS' is a commercial-support commitment provided by Canonical, who shoulders the financial and administrative burden of doing so; as such, it is entirely their decision as to whether or not they provide that support for a particular release," Remnant said. "It is difficult for this decision to be made by the community because the community's stake in Kubuntu is one of personal achievement and pride, whereas Canonical's is financial and of commercial commitments."

"fter all, many of the 'big' distro's are gnome based now and losing any more ground could hurt."

There's no such thing as a "gnome based" distro - they're "linux" or "gnu/linux". The window manager is only a small, easily replaced, component. Every once in a while I'll try the gnome desktop, but it doesn't take long to realize that almost any other desktop is just better - either less bloated, or better-featured.

Re:Not suprising (4, Interesting)

Almost-Retired (637760) | about 7 years ago | (#21852642)

I agree this will be unfortunate for KDE.

However your inference that LTS is of limited utility misses the point. 6.06 was chosen as the host platform for emc, precisely because by using 6.06, the emc developers were guaranteed a stable platform and could then concentrate on improving emc, and boy howdy have they ever. It is, I believe, the fastest moving development I've ever seen for an OS product in the field of computer numerical control software. It has gone from a somewhat twitchy & difficult to tune 3 axis milling machine driver to a stable 6 axis platform (9 is being discussed) capable of operating either a mill or a lathe. It can now bore a hole, then swap bits and thread both the bolt to fit that hole, and the hole itself on the milling machines table, I've done the threaded hole operation myself. Or to do the ornate carving in 3D of a beds headboard on a production line basis in a major high quality furniture makers factory.

When the next LTS comes out, emc will have to chose which of the realtime additions to the next kernel will be used, and adapt emc to live with it, and once done they can get back to the real project, that of making emc the accepted king of such applications. It is not far from that status now as commercial controllers are being ripped out, and emc put in their place to control machining centers as the older machines are being rebuilt, both due to wear in the machine, and bit rot in the controlling software which is no longer supported.

So the LTS versions do have a place in this world, very much so.

Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0.

Re:Not suprising (4, Interesting)

Simon80 (874052) | about 7 years ago | (#21852364)

I recently wrote a patch to fix a particularly egregious bug in Kopete 3.5 (the history search feature being totally and unnecessarily slow), and the response I got when I submitted the patch to the mailing list was that it would be pointless to apply it, they're not making any more releases of that branch. So there are people around to maintain stuff, but apparently nobody around to release it.

Re:Not suprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852742)

I'm a fan of KDE (ie, everything else sucks), but I'm less and less impressed with the KDE devs. 4.0 is shaping up to be a huge pile of shit, and there are no plans to maintain 3.5 even for a little while? Unbelievable.

Re:Not suprising (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852314)

QT3 isn't supported by Trolltech anymore, faggot. KDE3.5 is not viable for years anymore, no one has the resource to maintain QT3.

Re:Not suprising (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21851936)

Exactly. Kubuntu will definitely be supported, but only for the regular 18-month cycle. The other flavors (Ubuntu and Xubuntu) will be LTS editions, which means that they'll be supported for 3 years (desktop software), and 5 years (for the server edition).

Re:Not suprising (5, Informative)

Fri13 (963421) | about 7 years ago | (#21851972)

KDE4 starts KDE 4.x series and it isn't in that condition that everyone could use it like they can use KDE 3.5 on it current state. So, then when KDE 4.1 comes, it should be then in state it is good for anyone. Now when in few weeks KDE4 comes out, it is mostly for application developers and users who knows how to submit wishes and use KDE3.x applications in KDE4 too etc.

LTS support didnt come to kubuntu because KDE 3.5.x series support will be ended before LTS support and KDE4 isn't in shape it could be supported time what LTS needs. So, Kubuntu dont get LTS support, mayby next time when LTS version is coming from ubuntu.

But for those whole like to have supported KDE, can turn for other distributions like Mandriva, SUSE etc.

(im not developer but this info i have got from KDE blogs and it is UOM)

Re:Not suprising (1)

nurb432 (527695) | about 7 years ago | (#21852326)

But it also says they wont support 3.5.x which really is irritating for us KDE users.

Good thing FreeBSD 7. will be out by then.

Re:Not suprising (1)

mabhatter654 (561290) | about 7 years ago | (#21853038)

why promise to support a dead release for 5 years 6 months after the upgrade is released? in 2 years nobody will care about 3.5 and simply tell you to upgrade because those bugs are fixed.. Canonical doesn't want to do that by themselves. 4.0 isn't ready for betting your company on just yet, so the solution was to put both in the 8.04 under standard support, then commit to 4.0 under 8.10 forward... that seems the best course, had KDE gotten their stuff out in October so it could be in 7.10, they would have made the 8.04 release.. it's not like the plans for Ubuntu's support schedule are secret or unpredictable.

ubuntu shmoobuntu (2, Interesting)

FudRucker (866063) | about 7 years ago | (#21851882)

ubuntu wants to kick a release out the door every 6 months, i think it would be wise to release once a year and no more frequent than that, the rest of the Linux distros & community works at a slower pace than ubuntu wants to run at...

Re:ubuntu shmoobuntu (5, Informative)

phoenix.bam! (642635) | about 7 years ago | (#21851978)

Ubuntu feature freezes all releases. For six months nothing about your desktop changes, at all. Only security and bug fixes are released. If they moved to a one year release cycle they would either end up hopelessly out of date, or would have to sacrifice desktop consistency without a given distribution. Ubuntu doesn't want to surprise users with an update to their desktop that changes functionality.

Re:ubuntu shmoobuntu (2, Insightful)

empaler (130732) | about 7 years ago | (#21851998)

They're aiming at releasing twice a year with enough new features to catch the interest of the public, and only release STABLE every now and then. Next scheduled release (April 08, 8.04) is the upcoming stable branch.
KDE4 will probably be backported to 7.10, and will most certainly be included in 8.10.
The reiterate how above relates to your comment (sorry, I get carried away sometimes), the point of the twice-a-year release schedule is being able to make press releases and submit a lot of stories to Digg and Slashdot. Seen Slashdot's BSD coverage lately [slashdot.org] ? That's fewer stories for all the major BSDs (save for Mac OS X) than for one Linux distribution in the past year. Novelty is key if you want attention. By the time the same (matured, stabilized) features are added to BSD and Linux distributions that aim more at stability, it'll seem stale compared to the newest (not-quite-stable-yet) features in Ubuntu.

Re:ubuntu shmoobuntu (4, Interesting)

ditoa (952847) | about 7 years ago | (#21852026)

Personally I like Ubuntu's approach. IMHO Linux for the desktop can lose momentum very easily but Ubuntu seems to be keeping things rather stable. I have seen more improvements in Linux for the desktop since Ubuntu became popular than any time before. Perhaps it is just coincidence, perhaps not. Either way 6 months isn't an outrageously quick turn around time, I feel yearly releases would just cause everything to slow down.

Re:ubuntu shmoobuntu (-1, Troll)

smoker2 (750216) | about 7 years ago | (#21852628)

And in related news, my car has been running a lot better since I started wiping my arse with the other hand.
P.S. Linux doesn't need "momentum". It's not a race, it's an operating system. It gains nothing by "beating" the opposition. If anything, I have found the 2 main desktop environments have become LESS usable recently, presumably to cater for the newbs. Ubuntu is 1 distro, out of hundreds, and the only thing noticeable about it, is it's preferred by lusers rather than users. I guess some people are genetically disposed to become fanbois.

Re:ubuntu shmoobuntu (4, Insightful)

ditoa (952847) | about 7 years ago | (#21852762)

Your comparison is idiotic, momentum is needed regardless of if there is a "race" or not. Momentum is needed just to get things done in general. I am surprised you do not understand this.

As for the pointless attack on "lusers", what exactly is your point? That the default configurations are too simple? How is this a bad thing? You can change it however you want so why complain? Because it is not how YOU want it? Linux still has many rough edges, making it simpler is important not just for wider adoption but also just to make lifer easier for people. Providing I can still change it, I don't care how it is by default. Having everything complex from the get go is just stupid, why make things harder than they need to be?

Re:ubuntu shmoobuntu (2, Interesting)

Wowsers (1151731) | about 7 years ago | (#21852184)

Mandriva / Mandrake went from a yearly release back to 6 months due to user demand. When it went to the yearly release people didn't like it.

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/21/2348253 [slashdot.org]

Release frequency (1)

jrminter (1123885) | about 7 years ago | (#21853496)

As a user of Mandriva, I think six month releases are too frequent. I have found clean installs to have fewer problems than upgrades. Those take up a lot of time to be done every six months... I like the recent emphasis on backports. Wouldn't it be better to have more bullet-proof yearly releases with backports of the best of the upgraded features to the LTS version during development? Seems to be the best of both worlds...

Re:ubuntu shmoobuntu (1)

petermgreen (876956) | about 7 years ago | (#21852904)

ubuntu releases every six months BUT three out of four of those releases have a short support life and are aimed at those who want/need to be on the bleeding edge. One release in four is supported for a much longer period (3 years on the desktop 5 on the server).

The problem as I understand it is that the current KDE situation has put ubuntu in a tight spot, they either totally rip up thier release schedule (which would not be a good thing for their acceptance in the enterprise), they pay people to do a lot of support work for a non default desktop (which would probblly be a lot of money spent for little gain) or they don't provide long term support for use of KDE with hardy.

Re:ubuntu shmoobuntu (1)

xiaomai (904921) | about 7 years ago | (#21853632)

i think that the 6 month release cycle is largely a good thing. my favorite distro has always been debian. my main problem back then though was that whenever major new versions of software (gnome 2, xfree86 4.0, etc.), i knew i had two choices: compile it myself, or wait a year (or four) for the next version of debian to come out (assuming i was on stable at the time). I like only having to wait a few months with ubuntu.

the major downside, though, is that the packages that don't come pre-loaded in the default install seem much more likely to have bugs.

I hope this doesn't mean (2, Funny)

Neuropol (665537) | about 7 years ago | (#21851886)

my fancy blue Kubuntu splash screen isn't going to work any more.

That's what you get... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21851900)

...when you name your distro after some nigger-speak jibbajabba.

Re:That's what you get... (1)

whistlingtony (691548) | about 7 years ago | (#21852068)

................... Wow.

This is the most blatant bit of racism I have ever seen. I live a charmed life, I'll agree. Still... Wow...

P.S. Language is a beautiful thing. What geek would disagree? What is this person doing on Slashdot?

Re:That's what you get... (0, Flamebait)

Locutus (9039) | about 7 years ago | (#21852258)

the AC who posted that crap is obviously not a member of the tribe and with an attitude like that, they can stay away.


Re:That's what you get... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852890)

Hey you faggot, get over it.

If you like language so much, why don't you marry it?

KDE (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21851920)

I'd rather be a ladies man than a lady boy.

http://spamslashdot.myminicity.com/tra [myminicity.com]

FYI (0, Offtopic)

empaler (130732) | about 7 years ago | (#21852040)

Trolling spamlink above. Don't believe me? Check the URL.

Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (5, Informative)

empaler (130732) | about 7 years ago | (#21851926)

... adding features "upstream" of today's products are focused on KDE 4.0, meaning that it's risky to release a long-term support version based on 3.5.
Someone's not been paying attention to the point of LTS - the point is that since there is no addition of major features, there's less risk involved, making it a better choice for those seeking stability. Zonk's next accepted feature:

FreeBSD - too many versions?
News.com reports that only damned fools would go for FreeBSD 5.5 - where no major features have been added for years. Server maintainers should get with the program and start download FreeBSD 8 alphas - it has something called superpages and network stack virtualization, and while none of us know what that means, the names are impressive.

Re:Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852066)

it has something called superpages and network stack virtualization, and while none of us know what that means, the names are impressive.

Sounds like a typical Windows release.

Re:Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (0)

value_added (719364) | about 7 years ago | (#21852452)

the point is that since there is no addition of major features, there's less risk involved

Aaargh. A minor nitpick, perhaps, but no reason to muddle what could have been perfectly clear point.

the point is that because there is no addition of major features, there's less risk involved

Even when heard from the mouths of complete illiterates predisposed to bastardised or colloquial usage, since [reference.com] and because [reference.com] should not be considered analogous by anyone, any more so than "way" should be considered anything other than a piss poor if not bizarre unit of quantitative or qualitative measure.

Or for those gentle Slashdot readers preferring crib notes to study, commiting "Since when" and "Because why" to memory should suffice.

Re:Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852912)

I suggest you read your own link, idiot.

since [sins]
8. because; inasmuch as: Since you're already here, you might as well stay.

And "way" as a "unit" of distance is informal but acceptable usage. It is mostly metaphorical. People who lack autism understand this.

Re:Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (0, Offtopic)

immcintosh (1089551) | about 7 years ago | (#21853234)

Um, I might point out that the last definition of "since" in the very page you cited is synonymous with because. To quote:

... 8. because; inasmuch as: Since you're already here, you might as well stay.
Now, regardless of whether you are of the opinion that this is an unacceptable neologism, they may, at least according to dictionary.com, absolutely be used synonymously in this context.

...any more so than "way" should be considered anything other than a piss poor if not bizarre unit of quantitative or qualitative measure.
Way out there? Actually, the use of "way" as a measure of degree seems to be derived from "away," and, again if dictionary.com is to believed, can be traced several centuries back (this use originating sometime around 1175-1225 according to that source).

To be blunt, the only thing wrong with either of these seems to be that you don't like them, as they are clearly recognized as acceptable English usage, and have been for a long time. Normally I would ignore grammatical nitpicking, but the combination of patronizing tone and outright incorrect assertions here got my goad.

Re:Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (1)

slyn (1111419) | about 7 years ago | (#21852538)

Someone's not been paying attention to the point of LTS - the point is that since there is no addition of major features, there's less risk involved, making it a better choice for those seeking stability.

That is not necessarily true. Ubuntu 8.04 will be using kernel 2.6.24 (which still hasn't had a final release), and as always they use the newest Gnome (2.22 I believe) and X.org (7.3). On top of that they will be using the new PulseAudio sound server, integrating the Policykit framework, rewriting the restricted driver manager for easier cross-desktop-environment-iness, and tossing out the old "Human" theme for a completely new one. And of course working on getting Tracker and Compiz Fusion (and everything else, but those two in particular (hopefully)) less buggy and more useful.

Considering that this is supposed to be an LTS release, their still keeping Ubuntu on top of things in terms of the latest and greatest.

Re:Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (2, Informative)

wanderingknight (1103573) | about 7 years ago | (#21852880)

Yeah, but all the things you mentioned don't represent major application overhauls. They're mostly point releases, while KDE 4 is a complete remake of KDE.

Re:Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852602)

You don't really think a Slashdot editor is going to take the time to read, are you?

Re:Someone explain how LTS works to Zonk? (1)

MMC Monster (602931) | about 7 years ago | (#21852944)

The problem is: if a bug is noticed in KDE 3.5.x in a couple years, are developers going to waste time fixing it?

I'd rather see them be honest (5, Insightful)

Realistic_Dragon (655151) | about 7 years ago | (#21852018)

The Gutsy version of Kubuntu broke a _lot_ of things on my powerbook. Up until this release I was really happy with Linux on it, rating it well above OS X for geeks. Right now I'm seriously considering reverting back to Feisty.

So, with that in mind, it's actually nice to see them declare that something won't be working _before_ I waste time trying to upgrade to it. I can then make an informed decision about what to do, instead of using a half assed release that would disappoint me. Not meeting expectations is about the worst thing you can do to your credibility.

Re:I'd rather see them be honest (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852248)

Perhaps rather than "downgrading", why not move to a distro that doesn't break things?

Re:I'd rather see them be honest (2, Informative)

calebt3 (1098475) | about 7 years ago | (#21852456)

They upgrade slower.

Re:I'd rather see them be honest (0)

Pausanias (681077) | about 7 years ago | (#21852846)

Amen to that. Up until feisty, Ubuntu was a constant improvement for me. Then gutsy broke two very important features:
  • Suspend/resume doesn't work as reliably (hard restart required every ~5 resumes)
  • NetworkManager barfs when switching from wireless to wired
Now, I won't say that there weren't improvements. Rhythmbox now plays iTunes shares over SSH, and hibernate (which I never use) finally works. But these improvements definitely were not worth the above two regressions. Badly done, Ubuntu.

The only reason I'm not regressing to feisty is that I'm afraid I'll break my evolution settings when reloading my inbox to the older version. That, and the fact that I don't have the time.

Re:I'd rather see them be honest (1)

gambolt (1146363) | about 7 years ago | (#21852862)

just use debian. It's the same thing only the emphasis is on the code and technical perfection, not the eyecandy

Re:I'd rather see them be honest (1)

johnnyheavens (1182913) | about 7 years ago | (#21853168)

Pleeeeese...I even like debian myself but slow doesn't even start to describe debian's history of releasing. Sure, I know about stability and debian is as stable as anything out there but they've done little if anything to further the acceptance of linux. I'd love to start seeing debian and other nix folks start giving ubuntu it's due props. As I see it it, ubuntu has furthered the linux and OS growth by leaps and bounds compared to any other project since the first linux release and this will be good for everyone in the long run. I may even force MS to suck less. While the timing is harsh KDE given it's LTS release time and no KDE I am glad to know in advance.

Re:I'd rather see them be honest (2, Insightful)

gambolt (1146363) | about 7 years ago | (#21853372)

why run a release? At any point testing is more stable than most of Ubuntu, which is based on a snapshot of unstable.

Re:I'd rather see them be honest (1)

kbahey (102895) | about 7 years ago | (#21853058)

I have been using Kubuntu for a couple of years too.

The problems I had were on the upgrade to Feisty.

An Intersil WiFi card that worked fine on Edgy stopped working on Feisty.

The slmodem driver for the HDA sound card which worked fine on Edgy stopped working on Feisty.

Apart from that, on Gutsy with a new laptop (Toshiba A200-TR6), sound is a bit flaky (plugging in a headphone, sound still comes out from the laptop built-in speaker in addition to the head phone).

Also on Gutsy, inserting an SD card works most of the time, but has to be taken out and inserted for it to work on other occasions.

Re:I'd rather see them be honest (1)

ConceptJunkie (24823) | about 7 years ago | (#21853132)

Gutsy broke sound on my HP laptop and I couldn't fix it to save my life. It didn't work in Fiesty either but I was able to build a new version of alsa to get it working. And let's not mention wireless. I love using Gusty on my desktops, but for my HP Pavilion laptop, it's just not there yet.

I ended up switching back to XP, and I had to friggin' buy a copy because those bastards at Microsoft stuck Visturd on the laptop. Friggin' monopoly. If there was real competition I wouldn't have to pay because Microsoft decides to stop bundling a good product and bundle a crappy one solely because they hate the fact that they can't charge a subscription for their OS and are taking it out on customers. I'm sick and tired of those arrogant, hateful bastards.

If you thought Gutsy would be stable, (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21853166)

you were only lying to yourself.

As somebody who's never used it, I think Gutsy was awesome. It made Compiz the default on an awful lot of computers. Now, I've been trying Compiz every now and then as long as it's been around, and I'm sure anybody could tell a mile off that this would be a recipe for disaster -- in the short term.

The flip side is that, since the Ubuntu guys have presumably had to deal with a bazillion and one bug reports about Compiz, they've had serious incentive to fix the damn thing. Everybody benefits from that, though maybe not right away.

As of 2 weeks ago, Compiz still isn't usable on Debian. There's just too many little things still broken, and stability still leaves much to be desired. But I'm hopeful that it will be soon!

Disclaimer: I must admit I don't really care if Ubuntu survives. I've tried using "like Debian but easier to install!" distributions before (anybody remember Progeny?), and they just don't offer that much benefit. And if Ubuntu survives, well, it'll be a first. But improving the graphics for all Linux users? That's worth something.

BFD (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852020)

Any distro must make a choice of what to include or what not to include.

If it's critical software such as the kernel or compiler, the distro release is reasonably delayed. If it's not critical such as mtools, there's no need to wait.

With a desktop environment, it's somewhere in-between. If it is something most users depend on, then one would expect a reasonable delay. Obviously, maintainers of this distro don't believe that KDE users are in the majority and the distro can adhere to its release schedule and provide solid KDE4 support later. Good decision; not a problem.

However, making this NEWS implies there is something nefarious afoot and that alone should provide the usual morons who love to debate these things an opportunity to display their ignorance.

I, for one, do not welcome our flame-baiting masters . . .

Misleading article (5, Informative)

csnydermvpsoft (596111) | about 7 years ago | (#21852042)

Looking at the mailing list message [ubuntu.com] linked from the article clears up things. Kubuntu 8.04 will not be "unsupported" - it will simply not be an LTS (long-term support) release. This means that it will "only" be supported for 18 months on the desktop instead of three years.

Also, the concern is not whether features will still be being added to 3.5, but whether bugs fill be fixed upstream. From TFM: "Will a bug in KDE 3.5 receive upstream attention in March 2011?"

Re:Misleading article (3, Interesting)

theshowmecanuck (703852) | about 7 years ago | (#21852382)

Doubtful, as an AC mentioned (in a much cruder way), Trolltech is not supporting QT3 any more... or at least not much longer since they are now at QT4. KDE3.x QT3 and KDE4 is programmed using QT4. At least that is how I understood things to be.

Bottom line is that KDE3.x likely is not really going to be supportable till 2011. But who knows? That is a long way away.

KDE release and LTS (5, Informative)

Pecisk (688001) | about 7 years ago | (#21852072)

Disclaimer: I am GNOME user for eight years, but I recommend KDE for powerusers. Thanks God that we have choice.

Problem is very simple - KDE guys don't guarantee that KDE 3.5 will be supported next 3 years (which is obvious - KDE 4 is just around the corner and all development efforts will be channelled to it), but KDE 4 won't be useful until end of next year (basis is there, but lot of stuff must be ported). So it is kinda dumb situation. However, Kubuntu 8.04 WILL be released, it just won't be 3 years supported, aka LTS, but tradicionally 18 months, which is half of that time. After that, Kubuntu 8.10 release will contain KDE 4 at it's best.

So - not kinda cool that there won't be LTS for KDE, but still - there will be release.

p.s. it is a little bit sad that rather fine article summary contains somehow weak attempt to cause flamewar. Yes, KDE is popular, but also is GNOME - I know lot of KDE fanboys has problems to admit that (ohh, and it is similar with GNOME fanboys to admit that KDE is desktop of choice for many people, of course).

Re:KDE release and LTS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852182)

i was hoping for the flamewar to come up so that i could see the argument take place and the points beeing made

Re:KDE release and LTS (1)

Burrina (1209844) | about 7 years ago | (#21852232)

Divide and conquer my brothers.Are we not any stronger than this?

Re:KDE release and LTS (1, Funny)

Athrun Zala (1071446) | about 7 years ago | (#21852278)

Disclaimer: I am GNOME user for eight years, but I recommend KDE for powerusers. Thanks God that we have choice.

I don't know who your God is so I may be mistaken, but I'd really doubt that *any* of Them ever did any programming work for the OSS or the mentioned DEs. What about giving a little credit to the real hard working people behind the Gnome and KDE, who actually are the ones that gave us this choice?

real shame (-1, Flamebait)

Locutus (9039) | about 7 years ago | (#21852134)

the reasoning is sound but the effect is not what I think is going to be good for the desktop. Microsoft has way too many hooks into Gnome via Mono and too much reliance on Gnome could allow more harm when Microsoft gets more agressive with their patent claims.

FWIW, I recently ran across another instance of my I don't like Gnome. I did an installation of Ubuntu for a noob and went to edit the default menus but found only some items were editable. WTF, is up with that? I really disliked how Microsoft would make various desktop and system objects 'special' and without common access features. Try explaining to a new user why somethings get acted on one way while other, similar objects are acted on differently or can't be acted on. There was also the case where two of use could not find anywhere to change the text color of the desktop icons. All we found on the web was hand editing config files to change the text color and that through me over the top. I installed kubuntu-desktop and was done with it in no time.

There is dumbing down the UI and then there is dumb-shitting the dumbing down. Gnome is doing a great job at making a desktop you can't grow into. What next Miguel, MS-Bob-gnome?

With hope, Canonical can bring kubuntu(KDE v4.0) into the LTS support cycle once it's been shaken down. Even if it's a year into the the LTS release cycle.


Re:real shame (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852770)

"Microsoft has way too many hooks into Gnome via Mono and too much reliance on Gnome could allow more harm when Microsoft gets more agressive with their patent claims."

Anyone with any brains has already stopped using gnome (if they were ever using it in the past). Mono is just the latest in a string of really bad decisions - "[Cancel] [OK]" button order being one of them ... or these abominations [marc.info]

>> standard: [Reset] [Cancel] [OK]
>> alternative: [Reset] [OK] [Cancel]
The default action (the one the user presumably wants to do) should be on the left, in all LtR schemas. Doing it the other way "just to be different from Windows", when the fact is that this was how it was ordered before Windows even existed, was another Miguelistic brain-fart.

Re:real shame (1)

mabhatter654 (561290) | about 7 years ago | (#21853198)

the more I use Knoppix vs Ubuntu the more Gnome seems limited.. but KDE is too wide open.

The effect of Suse or Mandriva releases I've used was to reskin half of KDE to make it "simpler" but then leave you digging for options in the other half they didn't feel like updating. Neither distro reskins the same things either. The effect is that most KDE "fans" end up using the bog default version and adding their own customizations to it.

While that's great for everybody to have their own, it sucks for a community distro because nobody agrees on which things to strip out.. nobody agrees on a sane default and nobody want's to clean up the multiple option panes in 8 different places in a sane manner. That's what keeps it from being default in more distros. The Gnome folks just force what they think is sane and everybody lives with it... it's not great but it's easier for new users because there's only "one way" in most cases so at least support is easier.

There is still some licensing issues with the underlying QT license in that it is all-GPL or all-pay... there's no LGPL like GTK and Gnome. It looks like they fixed the cross-platform license problems (QT windows was pay only for a long time) but GTK already snapped up most of the cross platform action and troltech hasn't done much to go after it. Most QT stuff at this point is strictly Linux as "K" apps.. there's not much incentive to port to windows or mac because there are already GTK equivalents in that space.

i do agree, I think we should trust Trolltech more than Novell at this point due to Novell being "in bed" with Microsoft and the head of their cross platform projects being too much of a Microsoft fanboi and not paying attention to Microsoft's history of screwing their partners over IP issues. Mono, Samba, open office are all on the block for Novell to screw up by putting Microsoft "IP" in there "nobody" else can use.

Anything on the KDE 4.0 release? (1)

mobby_6kl (668092) | about 7 years ago | (#21852142)

Is there any info regarding how soon KDE 4 will be out?
I'm having problems with KDE under FreeBSD, but now Mr Yushchenko suggests [blogspot.com] I should just use the latest release. I'm not sure if 3.5 will do the trick, or I should just wait for 4.0?

Re:Anything on the KDE 4.0 release? (1)

crazed gremlin (978591) | about 7 years ago | (#21852170)

http://kde.org/ [kde.org] It's set to come out in 12 days.

F*ck it (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852166)

F*ck it, we're going to 5.

What next for Kubuntu users? (1)

Just Some Guy (3352) | about 7 years ago | (#21852176)

I use Kubuntu and was looking forward to the new version. What does this mean for me? Will I be stuck on the current version while the Ubuntu folks roll out a nice LTS version with nice features I won't be getting, or will there be an "unstable" version I can track?

Failing all that, what's a nice distro for KDE power users and developers? I've been using Debian for ages and I'm comfortable with Gentoo (although I'd prefer something else). Any suggestions?

Re:What next for Kubuntu users? (2, Informative)

Joe Tie. (567096) | about 7 years ago | (#21852246)

Going by the way kubuntu normally works, I'd be surprised if it came down to much more than adding a second repository to get access to kde4 packages.

Re:What next for Kubuntu users? (1)

Dragonslicer (991472) | about 7 years ago | (#21852676)

From what I've heard, and I may be mistaken, KDE4 will be in the standard repositories (universe, maybe?) for 8.04. I believe the plan is to have two installation discs available, one that installs KDE 3.5.x and one that installs KDE 4.0.x. I would guess that installing the other version from either starting point would be fairly easy.

distro for KDE *users (1)

KwKSilver (857599) | about 7 years ago | (#21852312)

what's a nice distro for KDE power users and developers?
Since you are a Debian user already, have you looked into Sidux [sidux.com] ? It is based on Debian Sid, but has been fairly solid for me, even though I'm no developer, or even a power user. I've used it for most of the year, since the release of "Tartaros" in May. Now, I have had problems with X breakage, but these seem to have been due to the ATI video card rather than Sid/Sidux, and I' am posting from a Sidux install. If you are a Debian power-user, you should have a fairly smooth flow down a nice stream.

Otherwise Slackware, or possibly Mepis, the latter of which is based on Debian Lenny, IIRC.

Re:What next for Kubuntu users? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852492)

Nothing except security uppdates will only come for 18months. So if you want to run the next version of kbuntu for more that that period of time you wont get anny updates

Re:What next for Kubuntu users? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21852630)

If you've been using Debian and want recent KDE version, why aren't you using... Debian?

Re:What next for Kubuntu users? (1)

CheeseTroll (696413) | about 7 years ago | (#21852686)

The article wasn't really clear, but someone else pointed out that it most likely means that the next Kubuntu will be supported for 18 months, rather than 3 years like the LTS Gnome version.

Re:What next for Kubuntu users? (1)

celle (906675) | about 7 years ago | (#21852882)

There's Slackware, FreeBSD, PC-BSD, PCLinuxOS (gnome version too). Ah, hell, just look on distrowatch.com and pick you're favorite 10 of 500?.

Nothing but a world of pain... (0)

chipoglass (1200295) | about 7 years ago | (#21852888)

Well, I guess this cinches it... I'm migrating to Mepis.

I've been using Kubuntu since the Dapper release, and the Gutsy upgrade has been a miserable couple months for me and has made me wish I'd stayed on Feisty. Now the Kubuntu team's completely dropped any KDE 3.5 support and there won't be a LTS release for KDE users in April. It's going to be at least another year before KDE4 has all the bugs worked out and is stable enough for us power users to truly start adopting it, and judging from the established Ubuntu release cycle, the next release in October after the LTS is going to be a cutting edge, unstable nightmare when combined with a still possibly unstable KDE4 release that'll still be missing features that won't reappear until the 4.1 release.

This means Feisty is likely going to lose security update support before we see another Kubuntu release stable and solid enough to use under the KDE4 base. We're likely looking at at least a year and a half if the KDE team can get 4.1 pushed out before about February/March 2009 for lockdown on features for Jizzing Jackalope or whatever, and if they miss that window, it'll probably be closer to two and a half before there's another solid Kubuntu release if Gutsy's any indication to their commitment to bugfixing a release before their next LTS comes out. I'm sorry, I could maybe cool my heels waiting for another stable software release for a server until April 2010, but not my desktop. Desktop software needs to stay current as much as it needs to be stable.

I have a feeling that since Mepis 7 just released and in light of this news, Canonical's going to likely lose most of their KDE userbase to Mepis over the next year or so. Shame that.

Re:Nothing but a world of pain... (1)

Locklin (1074657) | about 7 years ago | (#21853394)

You're moving to Mepis to get three years of commercial support on the current version? Oh wait.. they don't sell that. There's plenty of reasons to switch, but this makes no sense. You can still get 18 months commercial support, and both versions of KDE are available in the repositories.

Basically, NO ONE can support KDE3.x for the next three years because the KDE developers will probably neglect it in 2 years. NO ONE can sell a rock-solid KDE4 distro (ie. LTS) this spring because it's simply not ready. So they are *only* providing 18 months commercial support -sounds fair. The only other rational option would be to postpone both LTS versions to 8.10.

I have to wonder ... (0)

ScrewMaster (602015) | about 7 years ago | (#21852178)

Scott James Remnant

I guess there's not much of this guy left.

Disappointing Turn (4, Insightful)

Jekler (626699) | about 7 years ago | (#21852212)

I think this move is a mistake because the goal of Ubuntu has been to lessen the gap between non-technical users and Linux gurus. This introduces another layer of complexity for those non-technical users. I think it's a mistake to mix LTS and non-LTS in same-numbered/named versions of the OS. They have a variety of options here and I think they picked the worst of the lot. They should just add it to a community maintained repository or a backport from the next version.

Someone with an active interest in Linux isn't likely to be confused, but there's a growing number of Linux users who don't follow Linux as an interest, it's just the thing on their computer. More than most other distros, those are the people that Ubuntu has been trying to cater to. I think they chose the worst possible option given their target audience.

It might seem ridiculous to think a seemingly minor detail could confuse or scare off people, but after years of working in support (and I think any support representatives would agree) you might be surprised at how easily people form mental blocks and shut down (mentally) when faced with any computer-related issue. When you walk someone through a process and a button doesn't say exactly what you indicate, they panic. To them "END" is not the same as "FINISH" or "DONE, even though they should all mentally register as a word signifying completion. And then they won't even tell you the name of the button that appeared on their screen, they'll only tell you that they don't see the one you said, like you're playing some sort of sadistic "I Spy" riddle game. Sorry for the digression. Old trauma.

(I'm not knocking Ubuntu for catering to non-technical users. I prefer Ubuntu myself, though I've been a Linux user much longer.)

Re:Disappointing Turn (1)

MonsterTrimble (1205334) | about 7 years ago | (#21853108)

I disagree. Generally (and please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken) the LTS denotes that the release will be supported by Canonical for a longer time frame than a regular release. It has no extra features beyond a regular release. To 99% of the Ubuntu users out there (me being one of them) they would never notice the difference. I think the LTS is geared towards the companies which would use Ubuntu Linux on a number of computers which the IT department would need support for.

Re:Disappointing Turn (2, Insightful)

arendjr (673589) | about 7 years ago | (#21853112)

This makes no sense. You're assuming dropping the LTS term will make it more complex for non-technical users, but non-technical users don't care about the LTS term. The only people that care about the LTS term are people that need support, like IT departments, people who are not that easily confused. Really, non-technical people don't care about LTS, don't care whether their operating system carries an LTS label, and what they don't care about, they're not confused about, they just want it to work.

Re:Disappointing Turn (1)

mabhatter654 (561290) | about 7 years ago | (#21853244)

You are assuming that "IT" people are technical!!! I understand what the parent is saying. Mixing Ubuntu LTS and Kbuntu not LTS is a mistake. I know a lot of IT people that can barely keep windows version separate, that's part of Microsoft's problems getting things fixed over on their side. Let alone expect those same "wintel" admins to keep Ubuntu versions straight? The idea is that a commercial or large scale app can port to that version and know everybody is the same. While 75% of the code is the same for the releases, I can see in 3 years that an IT department would allow some members to use the KDE version of 8.04 like every other version then have trouble with compatibility but not be ready for the next LTS due to some App.

The solution is probably to hold up LTS for both until 8.10, but Ubuntu has already run it's timeframe for LTS and it's time to get one out to keep the 5 year plan working. They want to show the 5 year plan in action so that OEMs and ISVs will take them as seriously as Red Hat or Suse even though they are a truly free OS.

Re:Disappointing Turn (1)

johnnyheavens (1182913) | about 7 years ago | (#21853218)

I think too much is being assumed here. The tech folks won't care because they will have moved on with the new release. The non-tech folks won't care because they are going to use whatever the tech friends points them at. LTS or not. Where LTS matters the most is in larger deployments where consistency is very important to keep support costs down. In those cases Gnome can be use or 2 upgrades rather then 1 in 3 years can be done if KDE must be used. Given the reason behind the shorter (non-LTS) support of KDE in 8.04 I don't see any other way. What is the alternative you'd do? No Kubuntu 8.04 release? Because in 24 moths no one will be updating KDE 3.x let alone in 40 months.

And yet the question remains: (5, Funny)

shrikel (535309) | about 7 years ago | (#21852366)

KDE or emacs?

Re:And yet the question remains: (4, Funny)

MarkRose (820682) | about 7 years ago | (#21853556)

Haven't they already integrated KDE into emacs yet?

I still don't get it (3, Interesting)

realdodgeman (1113225) | about 7 years ago | (#21852500)

I can see that Kubuntu 8.04 will be released without LTS. Fair enough.

But this is just confusing. Will it use KDE 3.5, or will it use KDE 4.0?

Re:I still don't get it (5, Informative)

dasmoo (1052358) | about 7 years ago | (#21852784)

It'll be using 3.5. Long term support is not offered because upstream won't be prioritizing fixes for 3.5 bugs in three years time

Just use fedora (1, Informative)

mp3zero (306357) | about 7 years ago | (#21852656)

In other news... For those of you wanting to use KDE 4.0, Fedora 9 will be supporting it. It is currently in the rawhide build and can be installed on Fedora 8 by using the development repo.

Re:Just use fedora (2, Informative)

Locklin (1074657) | about 7 years ago | (#21853326)

Really? with commercial support for three years? oh wait... never mind.

KDE4rc is already in the repos... were just talking about long term support here.

I can understand why. (2, Insightful)

shadylookin (1209874) | about 7 years ago | (#21853134)

I imagine a lot of Ubuntu's users don't want to be guinea pigs for KDE 4, and to claim 3 years support for something that will only be supported for a fraction of that time would be dishonest. Besides 18 months of support isn't that bad considering with Ubuntu's 6 month release schedule they'll be on something like 10.2 before support for 8.4 will be gone.

Plasma is revolutionary (1)

m0llusk (789903) | about 7 years ago | (#21853140)

Even after KDE 4.0 is released it will take some time for Plasma to mature and accumulate useful accessories, but the real issue is how long it will take for other systems to either pick up or in some way duplicate Plasma as they almost certainly will.

Re:Plasma is revolutionary (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21853346)

I agree, Plasma needs a another 4.x release or two to reach its full promise but even at this point its very good. I especially like the idea of data engines and taskbar's=widgets. KDE4 is full of good design decisions, like Solid and Phonon. Abstraction layers to make applications easier to develop and making KDE4 independent of any specific hardware abstraction layer/multimedia framework.

Re:Plasma is revolutionary (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21853576)

It's an important paradigm shift in the design of user interfaces for Lunix systems. It's critical that developers continue to work together to make sure the proper synergies are in place. The power of the API's in KDE4 are apparant. What remains to be seen is whether or not the bugs will be worked out and if developer support materializes. ...

LTS = a bad joke (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21853232)

I'm a Kubuntu user and currently consider it the best OS for me since I want the bets open source system I can have. However, the LTS policy is a bad joke - I never got the current LTS version (dapper) to work with my Asus K8N4-E Deluxe motherboard and sata harddrives and I along with many other users complained about it on the forums until the bug report was closed with the decision that it won't be fixed since fixing it might break too many other things (and some had reported the bug even prior to the release). And in addition to that motherboard, the problem seems to be common with many other nforce4 motherboards as well - sata drives don't work. They do, however, work fine with the new, non-LTS release.

Any Ubuntu developers reading this: As much as I appreciate your efforts and am grateful for the OS, it is hard to take an OS seriously if developers decide that in the "long-term support" version they won't fix a bug like that which affects motherboards with such a common chipset. Can you imagine MS ever doing such a thing? Ubuntu has reached a state where people do try to take it as a viable alternative for serious use and consequently expectations are higher and that's what you want, isn't it? So live up to those then.

Obligatory question (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#21853252)

Yes, but does it run Linux?

Right now is not the time... (2, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | about 7 years ago | (#21853302)

I use Kubuntu. Right now KDE is in a major transition phase, moving from KDE3/qt3 to KDE4/qt4 is a bigger change than Gnome has ever done, seriously. While a few things survive porting it's fairly close to a rewrite of everyting KDE is. Supporting KDE4 for a LTS is a "no way" kind of thing, it'll barely be released and KDE has some creative defintions of RC. The only real option would be supporting KDE 3.5, which while I think would be good it something upstream may or may not do. After all, "kubuntu" will support all the server packages in Ubuntu, just not KDE. If they've been recültant to promise 3 years support, I certainly understand why Canonical would. When push comes to shove, they really don't want to sell much more than what upstream provides anyway.
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