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The Internet Government News

Canadian Regulator CRTC Saves Independent ISPs 87

Posted by kdawson from the if-only-it-could-happen-here dept.
fmenard123 writes "The Canadian telecommunications regulator, the CRTC, has affirmed in a decision released on March 3rd 2008 that DSL wholesale and Cable Modem wholesale will continue (PDF) until such time as a meaningful competitive source of supply of wholesale facilities develops. Aside from preserving the status-quo, the CRTC has also determined that unaggregated ADSL access (DSL wholesale for competitors who self-supply their facilities into telephone company central offices) is an essential service given the lack of unbundling for sub-loops. The CRTC ordered phone companies to re-price unaggregated DSL wholesale at forward-looking costs plus a mark-up of no more than 15%, opening the door for a significant reduction in the rates ISPs pay to the telephone companies for access to DSL wholesale. This decision has interesting implications for the US, in which the FCC was not able to overcome the legal attacks against its Computer II regulatory framework. Perhaps ISPs in the US need to look north to try to make their case again."
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Canadian Regulator CRTC Saves Independent ISPs More

Canadian Regulator CRTC Saves Independent ISPs

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  • Now if they'd just end the practice of simsubbing and preventing HBO from being broadcast in Canada. They'd be well on their way to gaining some respect.

    • Re:Simsubbing annoys the hell out of me (Score:4, Informative)

      by TheSpoom ( 715771 ) * <slashdot&uberm00,net> on Thursday March 06, 2008 @03:08PM (#22666232) Homepage Journal
      Mostly during the Superbowl, where we get [Global / CTV / whoever's] normal commercials instead of the ones that are actually, y'know, interesting.
      • This year a lot of companies set up a special HD channel to just air the Superbowl with American commercials. I have no idea how mad CTV/Global were. The best part is, it carried over into House. It was nice to see the show in proper 1080i with 448Kbps DD 5.1 for a change. You hear me Global!
      • That's something that really bothers me too. I wish they would just play the original CBS/NBC/ABC feed instead of playing the Canadian networks with their commercials.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Ced_Ex ( 789138 )
          As much as I would have liked to see the Superbowl ads, having a regular feed during the rest of the year would confuse the targetted viewers of those ads.

          Seeing ads of products I can't buy, or services for local areas would be pretty useless for both advertisers and viewers.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Curtman ( 556920 )

            As much as I would have liked to see the Superbowl ads, having a regular feed during the rest of the year would confuse the targetted viewers of those ads.

            It's not like we aren't used to seeing U.S. advertising. Anything that isn't being simulcast on a Canadian network shows ads from the U.S.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Ced_Ex ( 789138 )
              True, but seeing as I was in the market for a car, sometimes American ads would quote a price and I would jump out of my seat thinking "Damn, that's a wicked price, I better get on that!" Only to be sadly crushed when I realize that it was an American ad.

          • Uhhhhh, you don't understand what is happening, do you? Here is what happens: You get two cable channels. Fox and FoxLite AKA Global. You watch Fox, you get Fox, you see everything somebody in Seattle, or Buffalo, or whatever the local Fox station is, would see. Then House comes on and the cable company terminates the Fox feed for an hour and shows Global on both channels. After House, or the Simpsons, or American Idol, or whatever, is over, it switches back to the horribly confusing ads, as you say.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Shakrai ( 717556 ) *

      Now if they'd just end the practice of simsubbing

      Stupid question: What the hell is simsubbing?

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by TheSpoom ( 715771 ) *

        Simultaneous substitution [wikipedia.org], or simsub, is the practice by which cable, direct broadcast satellite and multichannel multipoint distribution service television distribution companies substitute a local or regional signal over a foreign or non-local signal, when two or more stations are airing the same programming at the same time. It is sometimes erroneously referred to as "simulcasting"; that term refers to the simultaneous broadcast of a program over two channels, regardless of whether or not there is signa

      • Simsubbing, or simultaneous substitution, is a CRTC rule that permits local Canadian broadcasters to overlay their commercials over the American broadcast. Essentially the practice permits local broadcasters to mirror their commercials onto American stations when Canadian stations are airing the same programs at the same time as the American broadcast.

        It is a controversial practice in Canada for reasons that I won't get into, but the practice is governed by strict rules on when and how a broadcaster may sim

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Ctrl-Z ( 28806 )
        Have you heard of google?

        Enter "simsub", click "I'm Feeling Lucky".

        Result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simultaneous_substitution [wikipedia.org]
  • Music to my ears.

  • Confused (Score:3, Informative)

    by bartok ( 111886 ) on Thursday March 06, 2008 @02:37PM (#22665866)
    Is it just me or the following article seems to said the contrary?:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080304.RCRTC04/TPStory/Business [theglobeandmail.com]

    • It says:

      Examples of services that will be deregulated include fibre-based transmission facilities, which are high-speed data connections to businesses. As well, third-party operator services will be deregulated.

      The CRTC will continue to regulate services it deems are "essential," along with ones linked to the public good and others that ensure customers on different networks can communicate with each other.

      The article is not clear enough on what would be deregulated or not. And additionally, Mirko B

    • Thanks for the link. And there's a whole crapload of stuff being deregulated by this decision, to see what will be phased out read the end of the decision. [crtc.gc.ca]

      There's a lot of technical stuff in there I don't understand, but I can't see how letting the market forces reign in Canada will result in anything other than the big players swallowing up the small ones. It's been happening with the cable industry here for years, and with the DSL market, too. That's what happens when the fibre-optic backbone is owned by
    • This is why I posted on Slashdot, because the conventional press doesn't seem to care (or understand?) about telecom issues. This newspaper article is right that fibre access will be forborne in 5 years, but that only matters for big businesses. For the residential user, that is until FTTH is built, telephone and coaxial wires are the only way out to the Internet. The CRTC decision will ensure that ISPs which are not owned by telephone and cable companies, will be able to continue to access the access fac
  • I may be being a bit dense, but I have no idea what any of this means. Apparently it's a good thing? Can anyone translate from telecom industry jargon into English?

    Also, the link isn't a .pdf, at least not at this moment.

    • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Thursday March 06, 2008 @02:45PM (#22665948)
      Government-sponsored monopoly telcos are forced to supply infrastructure access to other companies. They're allowed to make a 15% profit on the line.

      This has resulted in cheaper long distance rates, cheaper (and better) Internet access, better hardware, etc.

      In the old days, Bell told you to like your Bakelite rotary phone, and that nothing else was economically or technically feasible... and keep paying your monthly rental, since you can't purchase a phone.

      Because the telcos were forced to give access to the lines, we now own the phone lines inside our homes, and have fully electronic phones we OWN. We can have Internet access that isn't filtered by Bell, or passed through their misconfigured HTTP proxies. Oh, and the rates for everything are lower after adjustments for inflation.
      • Thank you. That actually makes sense.

      • Not everything about the Bell breakup was good (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Bell might have told you to like your 302, but by damn, some of those things are still around and working 40 years later. The "fully electronic phone you own" was probably made in China by sweatshop workers and will last approximately 40 weeks before either the cheap plastic breaks or discolors, or the "no-Chinese-word-for-quality" electronic components inside go on the fritz.

        Those of us old enough to actually remember the Bell monopoly aren't as gung-ho about deregulation as you youngsters.

        Now get off my l
        • I still have an old rotary. I agree they're damn near bulletproof, and put no load on the line, etc, etc, etc. Come Armageddon, the old Bell phones will still work.

          They were still overpriced, and lacked nifty features like call display, hold, and speed dial... nevermind the capacity for multiple lines and built-in answering machines and it really burned to pay rental on them every month.

          Some of us who ARE old enough to remember the Bell monopoly are glad it's gone.
      • We can have Internet access that isn't filtered by Bell

        Bell is throttling bit torrent traffic now and some encrypted traffic is getting
        caught in the same "web" as well. Us Bell users have to switch to 3rd-party DSL
        to avoid this throttling.
      • I've got my DSL line through a decent company (Teksavvy), but Bell still owns all the lines around here. Unfortunately, no matter who I sign up with, the service somewhat sucks as my line is past the distance-limit for a decent connection, and - despite being a major urban area - Bell isn't going to add a new node here anytime soon, and I have to live with the long-line to their central office.

        Of course, the DSL company doesn't find this out until after the connection is first established, in which case t
    • Basically, since Bell owns all the phone lines in Canada, and since there are only a handful of cable companies)which almost neverlap), the government is forcing them offer wholesale rates to other companies that want to run their own ISP, using Bell's "last mile" lines/equipment. So for example, I can get a DSL internet connection from a company like Primus, who is using Bell's lines/hardware at the street level, then onto their own network after that. They can offer better prices then Bell if they have l

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by CastrTroy ( 595695 )
        But the prices aren't any cheaper. I just checked Primus, and for their 3 MB/s connection, it costs $42.95 a month, if you sign up for their long distance also. Bell on the other hand costs $42.95 for their 7 MB/s service, as long as you sign up for at least a basic phone line. Oh, look, they're exactly the same price, and Bell is faster, and doesn't make you sign up for a long distance plan.

        • Don't buy a bridge - make an informed decision (Score:2, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          But the prices aren't any cheaper. I just checked Primus, and for their 3 MB/s connection, it costs $42.95 a month, if you sign up for their long distance also. Bell on the other hand costs $42.95 for their 7 MB/s service, as long as you sign up for at least a basic phone line. Oh, look, they're exactly the same price, and Bell is faster, and doesn't make you sign up for a long distance plan.

          I'd strongly recommend that you take some time and read the Broadband Reports forums [broadbandreports.com] on the various Canadian ISP's i

        • According to www.canadianisp.com there are over 100 mom and pop broadband ISPs in the Toronto area. One of the highest rated ones, MyCyberNet [mycybernet.net], with whom I subscribed for many years, charges $29.95/mo for 5Mb down and 800kb up if you prepay for a year at a time (or $37.95 monthly) with no other obligation (but you need a Bell line for ADSL to work). I liked that I could buy a modem from them for about $70 instead of renting one from Rogers for $10/month.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by SirLars ( 871223 )
            Acanac is 18.98/mo if you prepay for a year at a time, and unlimited VOIP can be added for 10.00 /mo they also have UNLIMITED downloads and employ no filtering. I switched to them after my other independant DSL company started charging for overdownloading and I got a bill for an EXTRA $160 one month for using 160GB more than the allotted 100 GB. The speeds are as good, or better than the last ISP I had. Dry loop + 38.00/mo (that's dry loop+ 5MB dsl + Voip) = unlimited calling and unlimited internet and t

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Drooling Iguana ( 61479 )

          I'd strongly recommend that you take some time and read the Broadband Reports forums [broadbandreports.com] on the various Canadian ISP's if you plan to make any ISP choices, rather than trust the sales pitches. It will take a little time, but you will very, very glad that you did. Pay special attention terms like throttling, hard caps, soft caps, bandwidth limits and penalties, the use of the phrase "up to" when quoting speeds, quality and location of technical support, cancellation fees, and customer satisfaction ranking [broadbandreports.com]. And m

      • There's a perfect example here in Edmonotn. My wife just switched us from Telus to Primus for both telephone and internet services. the only thing that changes for is is they mail us a new DSL modem, the rest stays the same. From what they said, it's saving us $40 per month. Also they said the speed would be faster, I wonder how that works. As long as they don't throttle my wife's torrents, I think it will work.

      • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)

        by kent_eh ( 543303 ) on Thursday March 06, 2008 @03:56PM (#22666990)
        Basically, since Bell owns all the phone lines in Canada,

        Maybe in your part of Canada, but not west of Ontario.

        MTS/Allstream owns the last mile copper in Manitoba
        Sasktel owns the last mile copper in Saskatchewan
        Telus owns the last mile copper in Alberta and BC
        • Yea it was just an example, that a single company owns the line into your house, Bell is just the biggest.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by HybridJeff ( 717521 )
          Regardless, as far as I can tell the telecommunications infrastructure in each region is owned by a regional monopoly. It might not all be Bell, but the effect is nearly the same.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by kent_eh ( 543303 )
            Yeah, they're all monopolies, but there are some differences.

            For instance, Sasktel is regulated by the provincial PUB (public utilities board) not the CRTC.
            In the case of this decision, that makes a big difference.
  • Like comcast, they are using network shaping but continue to go legally unchallenged . They've also overcharged for decrepit services each time I moved. I have spent many long hours just trying to get past the service people in India, back to a techie in my Central Office, down my block to properly provision the DSL lines cards.

    Now, we will finally have a larger selection of ISPs to choose from, with much more competitive prices!
    • I should clarify. Bell Sympatico includes one of the larger ISPs which are the subject of the article. Many smaller ISPs--at least here in Montreal (which do not practice throttling) use Bell's Central Office and equipment to provide their service, at a cheaper price. If correctly understood, the new ruling would make it even more cheaper to provide these other services.
    • Have any links to evidence of traffic shaping from Bell/Sympatico? I use them (And while yes I've had a few problems with them, and definitely don't like their pricing) I've never noticed any real problems with bittorrent or other commonly shaped protocols (Other than my latency skyrocketing while uploading faster than 40kb/s, even when I do ACK Prioritization on my OpenBSD Router)

    • Re:Check out TekSavvy (Score:5, Informative)

      by TheSpoom ( 715771 ) * <slashdot&uberm00,net> on Thursday March 06, 2008 @03:04PM (#22666176) Homepage Journal
      Have you taken a look at TekSavvy [teksavvy.com]? They're really cheap, good quality, high speed 5M DSL, with excellent customer service (almost every time I've called in, I've gotten an agent right away without any hold time). As I've mentioned below, I'm in the position of having to switch away from them for reasons beyond their or my control, but if you can get Bell at good quality where you are, I'd suggest taking a look.

      No, I don't work for them or receive anything for this.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by failedlogic ( 627314 )
        I will second TekSavvy. I switched from Rogers to TekSavvy on 5 M DSL. Great service and great rates. The support and sales are friendly and knowledgeable and no hold time either. I've recommended them to many others.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by yani ( 50270 )
        I back that recommendation up completely.

        I switched to them when Rogers started throttling all encrypted traffic (to throttle bittorrent believe it or not) and I've never looked back. They have great customer service and you aren't going to get better upload speeds (despite what Bell/Rogers advertise). If you go for their premium service rather than the unlimited you also get much lower latency. They take Bell to task whenever something needs to happen, e.g. something is wrong with your line, and are che

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by vonPoonBurGer ( 680105 )
        I recently switched to TekSavvy from Bell Symaptico, and I've been very happy with the change. My reason for switching? Bell stealthily introduced bandwidth caps (30GB combined up/down per month in my case), and starting charging a hefty $1.50 per GB over the cap. They wouldn't charge more than $30 in overage fees in a month, but still... When I compared their service to what TekSavvy was offering, making the switch was a complete no-brainer. TekSavvy's non-unlimited service does have a transfer cap, bu

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by ispeters ( 621097 )

        I'll also recommend TekSavvy. Their service is cheap, fast, and good. You can also get a static IP for a couple of dollars per month, and they don't block or filter anything, to my knowledge. I've just moved into a new subdivision that doesn't have DSL support yet, so I'm stuck with Rogers (*spit*), but I'll be switching back to TekSavvy ASAP. Speaking of which, I called in early January to see if my area was supported. The woman said "Not according to our records, but I'll talk to my Bell rep to see i

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Doytch ( 950946 )
        Seconding this recommendation. On top of what you mentioned, I've never noticed any throttling of my torrents(uTorrent in Windows, Deluge in Linux), even though I run them unencrypted by default. So, they're obviously not being affected by the throttling Bell takes part in.

    • Re:Now I can finally be rid of Bell Sympatico DSL! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Monkey ( 16966 ) on Thursday March 06, 2008 @03:14PM (#22666324)
      Although they have to provide access to their infrastructure, Sympatico, Telus etc. are still the reseller of bandwidth to the small ISP. In my view, this is still anti-competitive in that the independent ISP continues to get raped by being forced to pay for bandwidth to the upstream big telco. The telco is essentially getting the bandwidth for free, while collecting revenue from the small ISP for the same commodity. It doesn't seem fair that the telco can be a wholesale bandwidth seller and at the same time compete directly with its wholesale customers by targeting last mile consumers.

      If the CRTC really wanted to level the playing field, they would prevent the wholesalers like Bell Sympatico from selling directly to the consumer market. Then we'd see real competition and growth in the ISP industry.
      • Small ISPs are technically free to choose whatever bandwidth provider to the internet they want for ADSL at least. Teksavvy [teksavvy.com] uses Peer1 or Cogent bandwidth, Sympatico/Bell only provides the connection from the home to the DSLAM. Thus, Sympatico's traffic shaping/throttling/outages/etc does not affect Teksavvy's operations.
    • Dude - www.canadianisp.com [canadianisp.com]

      I found my replacement for Bell there, 3Web (or CIA, same company) Cable (rogers reseller), 5Megs, 34$/m taxes incl...

      Hope that helps!

  • Wholesale Cable? (Score:4, Informative)

    by TheSpoom ( 715771 ) * <slashdot&uberm00,net> on Thursday March 06, 2008 @02:59PM (#22666138) Homepage Journal
    I'm currently in the position of having to switch from DSL to cable because of the shitty quality of the lines in this building (and since I'm in an apartment, I really can't do much about that) and the distance to the CO. Now, from my research, here in London, Ontario, we have two choices for cable internet: Rogers, and 3web. 3web has gotten some really bad reviews, and my research shows they're simply reselling Rogers service through a deal they have with them.

    Now, if the CRTC really wanted to impress me, they would force Rogers to open their lines for cable internet. As it stands right now, AFAIK, we only have truly open wholesale for DSL access, and for those of us that can't get it at a reliable quality, it kinda sucks because our only real choice is the cable monopoly in the area, in this case Rogers.
    • 3Web resells cable Internet access in some areas of the country. They are apparently pretty crappy from what I have heard, but it is at least choice. I think it is more difficult to resell cable Internet access than DSL.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by billcopc ( 196330 )
      Rogers, as much as I hate them, seem to offer a pretty stable service. I had no technical problems with them when I was in London, except for their silly torrent throttling, but that's what my overseas server is for :)

      The hard part with Rogers is customer service - they suck at it. Once you can convince them to come connect you, as long as you're self-sufficient after that point, you likely won't have any issues. Well, until you want to disconnect of course.

      Rogers could easily be the best ISP ever, if on

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by p0tat03 ( 985078 )
        At least Rogers has 24-hour customer support. You may have to wait for 3 hours to talk to a live human being, but at least you can do that. When I was with Bell Sympatico they ONLY WORKED from 9 to 5... Any time I had a problem I had to take time off work just to deal with it!
    • We seem to be screwed for broadband no matter what.

      Here in Windsor, Ontario we have Cogeco for Cable and then Sympatico (Bell) for DSL. You CAN go with smaller ISPs for DSL but the lines are still owned by Bell. I was doing that for a while and the service was extremely crummy. MNSI told me that the phone lines in my area were old and problematic and that they had notified Bell to come check them out. Bell never did. I ended up switching back to Cable but there's only one choice: Cogeco. Which I believe is
      • Last mile communication service is a natural monopoly. The only reason quite a few areas have a duopoly is historic (prior to the digital revoloution phone and TV required different types of infrastructure).

        The only real answer is to seperate out the running of the bits that are a natural monopoly from the rest of the service and then heavilly regulate the bits that are a natural monopoly. E.g. your problem would have been solvable if there was a independent complains body you or your ISP could turn to who

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Mashiki ( 184564 )
      http://www.canadianisp.com/ [canadianisp.com] for a larger ISP listing.

      There's more then just 3web available but considering how small a market canada is period compared to the US, I'm surprised that there's usually 4-5 companies in most large cities at times providing dsl and cable service. DSL is much easier to get because you can get a dry loop for nothing due to deregulation. Bell was the only monopoly for 50+ years.

      The only way that will happen in the end is if the CRTC and other providers come to an agreement over th
  • The CRTC is why Canada has such a drastically higher number of users on broadband, as compared to the USA.

    It encourages tech growth, it helps job creation ... and increases the number of high speed seeders on my favourite tv show torrents.

    Yes, what IS good for the economy can also be good for the people. It might also appear to be bad for the RIAA, or MPAA... but we all know they're still rolling in cash ;)
  • this into English. It may make sense to the folks in the Great White North, but it's all Greek to me.
    For example: How does one buy DSL wholesale? Do you buy it at Sam's Club or Costco?

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Wolvie MkM ( 661535 )
      Not quite, as I understand it the CRTC mandated that Bell and Rogers have to offer their lines to resellers.

      If you start a company that wants to resell the Interweb you call up Bell and they'll sell you X number of DSL lines. I believe last time I checked they sold a DSL line for 24$ (according to the ISP I worked for) so the profit for the 3rd party is next to nothing usually.

      I'm sure there is a minimum amount you need to buy, I have no idea what that is.

      This is incredibly simplistic but hopefully it gives
  • I recently tried to ditch ROGERS which has sporadic outages and fluxuating bandwidth (which goes far beyond the traffic levels in the neighborhood)... For Teksavvy (29.95 for 768k up and 5mbps down consistent [Got it for my Grandmother and tested]) when I called and gave my Bell phone # they said I was "Locked Out" by Bell and she didn't seem surprised, I live in downtown Toronto.

    "Locked out" WTF is that?! Of course calling Bell they gave me the run around I guess they don't need the 15-17$ a month they'd

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mjwx ( 966435 )

      Seeing as I'm from Canada I can say, MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL IS REQUIRED!

      I agree with you. Australia had a single telecom company for years before the government allowed competition. The Telco being government owned (Australia Telecom) naturally owned all the copper. to allow competition the government forced the telco lease there lines and fixing the price at which they can be leased. Aust. telecom has since been privatised (and is now called Telstra) but the government still forces Telstra to lease use o

  • I can't imagine why they would want to encourage competition for ISP's up there.  Just look at how great the lack of it works south of the border.

    I mean...with my business class Comcast cable internet, I get nearly 128kbps upload speeds.  That should be enough for anyone.
  • CANARIE [canarie.ca]

    Of course, customer owned fiber networks aren't the only way. Having a neutral third party own and manage the dark fiber between colocation points and end-users (and likely the fiber uplinks too) would work. It'd be a nice bit of business for the power companies, for example. Let competing service providers plug their electronics into the fiber. Customer wants to switch providers? No problem, make the change at the colo and plug in a different box at his home.

    Some cities, including the People's
  • All this shit is meaningless to me.

    Last mile of copper? HA!
    The last 4 miles of copper is mostly buried underground on a rotting wire.
    The last HALF-MILE is above ground (if you can call it that) ever since a large tree brought down the hydro wires and the bell wire two years ago.

    Within 2 hours the Hydro-Quebec guy came by, took a look and said the truck would be by in the morning to fix it. They did exactly that.
    The Bell min-wage outsourcing company? They came by 3 days later, after I had gone o

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