DIY Hybrid Car Kit 309
Hybride And The Groom writes "Building hybrids uses machinery that pollutes the environment. The solution? Ship the parts of a hybrid individually and get your customers to put the car together themselves. That's exactly what Robert Q Riley Enterprises is doing, according to a story on CNet today, with its XR-3 hybrid. It'll cost you $25,000 for the bits, plus zero dollars in manufacture, I hope. Better yet, cough up $200 for the blueprints and schematics and even build the parts yourself. It's no secret that many hybrid drivers are smug enough as it is. Allow them to brag about having built the damn cars themselves and we might be entering obscenely smug territory."
Neat idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
At least that one looks cool but, really, who has the time to do this? If they have the time then do they have the interest or the money?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Or, one could buy 10 or more easy-to-DIY-fix old VW beetles with enough spare parts and earth-frendliness to last a lifetime.
Re:Lifetime of Beetle parts... (Score:4, Insightful)
Crimeny, having had a VW Beetle I would estimate that you would have to factor in the cost of a barn to keep enough spare exhausts, wings, sills, filler, primer, welding rods etc to keep 10 of the damn things operative (at least in the UK).
Re:Lifetime of Beetle parts... (Score:5, Funny)
You don't keep all 10 operative. You keep 2 operative and put your 8 organ donors in the barn. 4-to-1 seems like about the right ratio to keep an old Beetle together.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Which is not a hybrid, but a standard gasoline engine (albeit a 1.0L gasoline engine)
Re:Neat idea... (Score:5, Informative)
Smarts aren't actually that fuel efficient -- 35mpg hwy/31mpg city if I remember correctly. It's not even a regular hybrid, let alone a *plug-in hybrid*, like this vehicle. Of course, for this vehicle, ignore the BS mileage figures; most EV and PHEV manufacturers come up with fake "mpg" figures that assume you drive X miles on electricity and Y miles on gasoline, where X is much greater than Y, and then ignore the electricity. Still, it's hugely beneficial. Even from our current grid, according to a DOE study, due to the greater efficiency of power plants, you get a third lower CO2 emissions by going electric.
For those who are interested in going electric, and aren't into novelty kit cars, here's a list of 33 upcoming EVs and PHEVs [dailykos.com], excluding motorcycles and commercial vans/semis, not counting concept cars, and not counting cars from new companies that haven't shown compelling evidence of working toward production.
Re:Not your fault, but vapor cars aren't useful. (Score:4, Interesting)
Right, only two are available today. But the rest are coming out in the next couple years. Even if some (or even a large chunk of them) were cancelled or delayed, that'd still be a huge number of vehicles. And while perhaps a third of them are luxury or performance machines well beyond an ordinary person's price range, most are not. More expensive than a gasoline car, sure, but nothing that you can't make up in reduced operations costs.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
When McCain allows off shore drilling they'll all go away again. Electric bullet dodged by auto companies... again.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The Toyota RAV4EVs with the same type of batteries still work fine.
Re:Neat idea... (Score:4, Informative)
As an aside, I've never actually encountered a hybrid owner who was smug about it. A few of my friends own them and it has never even actually been mentioned other than when I was thinking of getting one and asked how it had been running.
Re:Neat idea... (Score:4, Interesting)
I hear you.
I have friends and acquaintances who own hybrids, I live in an area where they seem to be fairly common, and I have never, ever encountered anyone being smug about it. I have, however, gotten seriously tired of self-righteous people complaining about these supposed hordes of smug hybrid drivers.
It seems to have become a requirement: "Any mention of hybrid vehicles must by law be accompanied by a reference to their smug owners."
Want smug? Try talking to a Hummer owner.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The Smart is a city car. The brick-like shape isn't very aerodynamic, but low mass is far more important than efficient aerodynamics for city driving. Around town it's much more efficient than most things. If you're starting and stopping, small = efficient, or more accurately, light = efficient.
If you want a real car that's efficient, buy a Peugeot diesel hatchback. 60 mpg (UK gallons) with no need for fancy hybrid crap, 3/4 the price of a Prius. Unless you and you family are startlingly obese, have three 6
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And you could probably cut that price further by getting a used motor of that class... I've got access to a bunch of Kubota D950 motors (slightly larger displacement, older, but same technology) that I could probably get for free.
Or, pay a little more, and get a different motor - I'm thinking a Yanmar 3TNV82A-BDSA. Yes, it's over 100 lbs heavier, but you get 10 more horsepower, and below 3000 RPM a significant increase in BSFC, due to it being direct injection.
(Alternately, you could probably put that engin
Re: (Score:2)
I have an old Miata that I will retire soon in favor of a car with a back seat. I plan to keep the car, and I've been seriously thinking about trying to convert it to electric. If I leave the transmission in place and just replace the engine, and use lead-acid batteries, I should be able to get a 25-mile range with overnight recharges.
More importantly, it would give me a chance to feel things that aren't plastic, something that bothers me about modern life. I missed the opportunity to learn car work when
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Why lead-acid? I don't understand why so many EV converters use it nowadays. Because of its lower upfront costs? You're just wasting your money further down the road because you'll have to keep replacing them. Why not just install something that lasts, like lithium phosphate or stabilized spinel cells? You'll end up with a better handling, lighter-weight, more powerful, lower maintenance, faster charging vehicle to boot.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey if your local mechanic already owns a yacht, he may as well build himself a prius :)
But other than that, I agree. Who has the time and money? Upper management, and they don't have the interest. Who has the time and interest? Me, but I don't have the money!
Re:Neat idea... (Score:4, Funny)
At least that one looks cool but, really, who has the time to do this? If they have the time then do they have the interest or the money?
Right, I mean, we all have time for slashdot, but you can't exactly build a car in your cubicle without people noticing!
buy an old S10 and convert it to electric (Score:5, Informative)
there are plenty of people doing nice electric S10's for under $10k including the donor car. The 40 miles round trip per charge is almost twice what I need.
Re: (Score:2)
Sure, if a used vehicle, 40 miles range, 60mph top speed, very poor power, and having to replace your lead-acid batteries every 3-6 years is acceptable to you, then yes, you can do that. As for me, I need 100+ miles range, 80-90mph top speed, reasonable acceleration, and a battery pack that lasts the life of the vehicle. Hence, I'm on the waiting list for a $27k Aptera [daughtersoftiresias.org]. However, it's hardly the only such vehicle that's coming out in the next couple years; there are dozens. If, for some reason, Aptera we
Re:buy an old S10 and convert it to electric (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:buy an old S10 and convert it to electric (Score:4, Interesting)
To get costs at that $7K number I completely rebuilt the ICE motor with some performance goodies that I had kicking around the garage and sold it for a pretty penny to someone who didn't know any better, sold the entire interior, box, ECU and wiring harness, etc. To get the weight down and make the truck get the range I'm shooting for I chopped a lot of the body away, tubbed and tubed with a full FIA approved safety cage the truck, replaced the dash with a lightweight aluminum dash, fiberglass race seats, and hand fabbed a lot of the new body from fiberglass. Basically the kind of prep work that goes into a race car to make it really light is the kind of stuff I've done. Two guys can lift the rolling chassis up with ease.
Of course, having all the tools, knowhow and patience to do everything myself DRASTICALLY brings the cost down. .
You can get almost 100 miles from an S10 (Score:4, Informative)
If you sacrifice the bed, you can get a 92 mile range commuter vehicle out of an old S10.
http://www.austinev.org/evinfo/build/eva-selectingavehicle.html [austinev.org]
http://www.evalbum.com/037 [evalbum.com]
That may be much more than what you need, but the less you draw down your batteries, the longer your batteries will last. If you never let your batteries drain below 95%, they will last much, much longer than if you're draining them halfway down every day. In the long run, this may save you a lot of money, as battery replacement is the majority of the cost per mile for running an electric vehicle.
"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:5, Insightful)
Only if your time is worth zero dollars.
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:4, Funny)
I know some people like that. Unfortunately, since there time is actually worth close to zero dollars asking them to build it for me would get me close to zero progress wouldn't it? Actually my guess is they would screw it up so bad I would have to throw it all out and buy another kit if I tried to get them to build it for me.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Same goes for the zero pollution to manufacture; last time I checked, it takes food, shelter, diversions, etc. to "power" a human. I wouldn't be surprised if having people build things by hand polluted the environment more than by machine.
And that same human requires those same things regardless of whether or not he's building a car from a kit, right? At least until we can manage to make cryostasis actually work that is.
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:4, Insightful)
Not exactly. Exercise increases the rate of burning calories (that's why people who want to lose weight do it). The human body is inefficient about turning food calories into kinetic energy, and plants are inefficient at turning sunlight into calories (photosynthesis is fairly efficient, but most of the energy doesn't end up stored in a way we can recover through digestion -- usually somewhere between a fraction of one percent and a few percent is). And there's all of the energy involved in growing, harvesting, processing, and transporting that food, which is often greater than the energy contained in the food.
Lastly, there's a value to time. The person could instead, for example, be building wind turbines or installing solar arrays. The biggest reason why this is a kit car is almost certainly because the maker didn't want to have to work out a cost-effective mass production system, not because it's somehow better for the environment that way.
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:4, Informative)
The biggest reason why this is a kit car is almost certainly because
my guess would be so they don't have to pass all the crash and safety laws and regulations. much like kit airplanes, kit cars do not have to pass the same safety standards (which I understand involves destroying many cars = bad for the environment)
I am sure their are lots of other savings as well (shipping, licensing, financing, etc.) Also lots less warranty, because it will be on average years before many make any use of their cars.
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:5, Insightful)
Having nearly completed building a one-off airplane, I can attest to the fact that a one-off greatly increases the amount of 'stuff' going into the waste stream. It seems that each part made for the airplane requires a mold, jig or custom clamp to hold it in place. Buy the time I finish, I will have built the equivalent of 2.5 airplanes, and none of those molds, jigs or clamps will be useful to anyone else.
Let there be no doubt. Massive manufacturing operations really do decrease the waste-stream volume on a per unit basis.
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:5, Insightful)
Only if your time is worth zero dollars.
Or the entertainment you receive from putting together your own toys is greater than the cost of your time, in which case you might even "profit".
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:5, Funny)
Re:"Zero dollars in manufacture" (Score:5, Insightful)
Only if your time is worth zero dollars.
So just like Open Source Software, then.
It should go over very well here.
For the record, if my car wasn't under a very comprehensive warranty for the next five years, I'd order the parts and do the conversion just so I could say that I'd done it.
Spare time (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if you enjoy tinkering with stuff and would otherwise have the time free anyhow, then it might even be that the time is of a negative cost.
That is to say, if you spend $25k for the unit, but spend 200 hours being rather entertained by putting it together, then you've just spend $25k on the parts and saved $x on whatever else you might have spend that money on (movies, video games, trips, etc).
I do a lot of the additions/repairs around the house. If might cost *more* than a plumber/carpenter/etc if you count what my day job's hourly rate is, but for me the cost of supplies is paying for both the renos and the entertainment of doing them.
One man's burden is another man's leisure, I'd rather be working on neat projects around the house than baking under a hot sun swinging a stick at a dimpled white ball.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I do a lot of the additions/repairs around the house. If might cost *more* than a plumber/carpenter/etc if you count what my day job's hourly rate is, but for me the cost of supplies is paying for both the renos and the entertainment of doing them.
Especially since the comparison between your hourly wage and the time you spent doing the plumbing, carpentry, whatever is probably specious.
I mean, I might be able to make say $40/hr as a freelance contract programmer, but I'd be lucky to get paid at all to do pl
Re: (Score:2)
Motorcycle, not a car (Score:5, Insightful)
Like so many of these things, it's a motorcycle - not a car. It only has 3 wheels so that they don't have to meet safety standards.
Who knew you could lighten up a car if you stripped out all of the safety equipment?
and good luck... (Score:3, Interesting)
...getting it insured. Just ask anyone who's ever built one of those DIY motorcycle kits or a custom shop (like OCC).
3 wheels don't necessarily mean motorcycle. (Score:4, Informative)
It depends upon the regulations of the state or province. In British Columbia, Canada, a three-wheeled vehicle with an enclosed passenger compartment is considered an automobile. Some states call vehicles with 2 front wheels and 1 rear wheel cars, while others call the motorcycles. Some places it's a matter of engine displacement, body styles, etc.
Re: (Score:2)
Who knew you could lighten up a car if you stripped out all of the safety equipment?
That's pretty much what American car manufacturers do anyway, which is why they don't sell in the UK or EU. The insurance conditions are so onerous for some makes of American car that you're going to be taking the bus most days.
Re: (Score:2)
Ummm.. Actually US safety requirements tend to be greater than EU requirements.
The reason that US cars tend not to be sold in the UK is the UK is too small of a market to build for. That RHD thing. US cars are not designed to be easy to convert.
You can buy a few US cars in the UK. The Corvette for one.
For the rest of the EU there is no real need to sell US cars there except for a few like the Corvette. Ford has is in Europe as is GM. Probably the big reason that US cars cost so much to insure in the EU is t
Re: (Score:2)
Not *having* to meet safety standards != Not meeting safety standards. There are about a dozen advantages to the tadpole trike design -- reduced wind resistance, lighter weight, lower construction cost, lower maintenance, drivetrain simplicity, and so on. Honestly, I'd love it if we:
A) Ditched our classification system based on the number of wheels
B) Came up with a set of environmental and safety classifications that vehicles could voluntarily choose to try to qualify for
C) Required that their environment
Re:Motorcycle, not a car; Agreed, but... (Score:2)
First, its design is far safer than a motorcycle. In fact its safer than a trike, because most all three wheelers to date are made backwards, in that they are completely unstable while decelerating on a turn. This one is the right way around so it is much more stable during the evasive manoeuvres that count. I don't care a whole hill of beans how fast a vehicle accelerates, but its got to stop fast without flipping over or its
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The way I understand it a motorcycle really has one and only one safety feature, maneuverability. You don't ever want to get hit and if you're careful you can often avoid getting hit when a car wouldn't be able to. A car on the other hand has size, crumple zones, mass, multiple airbags, decently strong building materials and so on which let it it take a hit without killing the occupants. This thing seems to fail under both criteria.
Building anything harms the environment (Score:3, Funny)
Building hybrids uses machinery that pollutes the environment. The solution? Don't build anything!
That said, though, I looked up what would be required to build an all-electric vehicle and it was about $10k not including a vehicle to convert. Not a cheap hobby, unfortunately :/
=Smidge=
We need to stop manufacturing uneccessary cars. (Score:4, Interesting)
most hybrids (GM) at least basically have a motor wedged between the engine and transmission. The engine and drive line are exactly the same as the non hybrid versions.
This being said I recently purchased a trusty 92 Corolla which after a little tweaking and cleaning up gives me over 40 mpg. how hard would it be to mfg a adapter kit between the transmission and engine similar to what GM does.
a big part of the problem is we keep building unnecessary crap. I know in our economy this is not beneficial but why not take cars we already have and update them.
Re: (Score:2)
a big part of the problem is we keep building unnecessary crap.
I agree with you on most things, but cars are actually very highly-recycled. Advances in automotive technology reduce pollution and increase safety. Plus, old cars do simply wear out.
I'm actually fairly glad that the road isn't full of '92 Corollas :)
Re: (Score:2)
Most any of the old Honda CRX models, especially before '99, deliver excellent mileage, near equal to a Prius on the highway. Seems a shame the ricers gut them thinking they will ever drive like FnF. Especially when the driver tops 250lb...
Re: (Score:2)
An adapter kit as you describe would involve a clutch of some sort (to decouple the ICE) and essentially an oversize starer motor. not really THAT difficult but space might be an issue on some vehicles. The spur tooth of the flywheel is not intended for serious power transmission and would have to be swapped out for something that is. Don't forget lubrication either! Power transmission in constant-contact gears will need a recycling oiling system separate from the engine's.
I have seen some kits that essenti
Re: (Score:2)
The system I had in mind is similar to the picture below (see link) I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to mfg something lass than 6" wide. The motor wouldn't' need a clutch per say as it would always be engaged either generating electricity or providing power. You eliminate the battery, alternator, and starter. Then throw some batteries in recesses along the frame.
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/p/vibrantplanet.com/cleangreencar/1119228919_24429.jpg [cleangreencar.co.nz]
Re: (Score:2)
I disagree with what's written on the main page, (Score:3, Interesting)
By providing prints and the ability to build parts/put the damned thing together to begin with it's not to give smug yuppies something to be conceded about. It's to give hotrodders the ability to make supped up hybrid! Seriously, I would love to get most of one of these kits, put two kits into a car if possible for the extra kick, throw in a powerful V6 instead of a four (or even three) banger, then put it all in the body of a Dodge Charger.
The electric part could actually take it off the line better than a gas engine, the gas engine would add the power, something like that should kick ass on the quarter mile then do a relatively slow victory lap without using any gas.
Re:I disagree with what's written on the main page (Score:3, Interesting)
"The electric part could actually take it off the line better than a gas engine,"
THIS.
The best part about that is you wouldn't need a bank of batteries to do the job. A large capacitor bank (or super-capacitors once they're available) would work great. Just enough juice to break the inertia of the car and lug it off the line is all you really need.
Re: (Score:2)
Just enough juice to break the inertia of the car and lug it off the line is all you really need.
Until it gets hilly!
A lot of people forget about hills - even mild ones. That tiny little gas engine won't climb hills very well, so you'd better have enough battery power to go up the largest grade you are likely to encounter - and then recharge fast enough for you to tackle the next one.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So new hybrids must have enough battery storage capacity to get over those hills, more than just to get going after a stop light.
Re: (Score:2)
Drag racing generally isn't done on hills...
=Smidge=
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly. You need to have a kilowatt hour or two of reserve charge to "average out" the hills. Optimally, your motor should be sized to haul you up an interstate at 5-6% grade (6% = legal max) at what you consider a reasonable speed, while your engine should be sized to manage a 1-2% grade (you generally won't surpass that as a running average of slopes on an interstate). Smaller mountain roads may be steeper and have higher average grades, but you won't be climbing them at nearly as high of a speed, eit
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No, the real reason for selling kits is to avoid safety and pollution controls. A manufacturer has to deal with those, but a kit maker doesn't, at least to some degree. I don't know all the ins and outs of it. Maybe kit makers avoid those problems only if the kit modifies an existing car. But I bet this guy avoids them too since he is not selling a car. Maybe the catch is that the builder (the kit buyer) will have to deal with safety and pollution controls, and probably not be able to register it.
Re: (Score:2)
No, the POWER/Weight ratio of an electric system is amazing compared to all but the most high-end gasoline engines (read: high-strung racing engines that get completely rebuilt after every use).
It's the ENERGY/Weight ratio of batteries that pales compared to gasoline:
Gasoline: 47 MJ/kg
Pb-Acid Batt: 0.10 MJ/kg
NiCd Batt: 0.20 MJ/kg
Li-Ion Batt: 0.65 Mj/kg
All values are approximate, of course.
I other words, you can release stored energy from a battery at a much faster rate than you can from gasoline, but you ca
Why stop there? (Score:5, Funny)
Why not design the car yourself - using bits and pieces found at your local junkyard? Better yet - smelt the metal in your garage and take up blacksmithing to make all the bits. Sort of like building your own computer from discrete transistors.
Re:Why stop there? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why not design the car yourself - using bits and pieces found at your local junkyard? Better yet - smelt the metal in your garage and take up blacksmithing to make all the bits. Sort of like building your own computer from discrete transistors.
If you haven't built a small computer from discrete components, I'd say that you may have some gaps in your understanding.
It's a real pain, but there is a certain satisfaction of manually triggering the cycles and watching it read and write.
Limits (Score:2)
Well for those that would have the money to buy something like this, and the time to put it together, doing the above (or at least some of the above) might actually be a fun hobby.
It's not like people don't invest a lot of time and cash into restoring old cars or modding their own vehicles, after all.
Personally I want a Delorian with a flux capacitor...
uh, no, that's not the reason (Score:5, Informative)
Uh, building a hybrid at home probably makes more pollution than making it in a factory.
The reason they sell it as a kit is to avoid all the federal vehicle rules. By passing on assembly to the end-user, it becomes THEIR problem to get the car licensed.
Also I don't quite get the "zero dollars to manufacture". Lots of the steps involve lots of time, welding, painting, trips to the hardware store. That all costs many $$$.
Re:uh, no, that's not the reason (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason they sell it as a kit is to avoid all the federal vehicle rules. By passing on assembly to the end-user, it becomes THEIR problem to get the car licensed.
Good point. But to be accurate, the licensing becomes a non-issue. You start with a car complete with license. Then you mod it. Once you have a license, you can do pretty much anything you want with a vehicle, so long as you leave the safety and emission equipment needed for inspections intact.
The other advantage is that federal regs mandating manufacturer warranties don't apply. This is what killed GM's EV1. The requirement to provide spare parts for a few thousand cars would have cost GM millions (think b
Not a zero footprint solution (Score:2)
And you plan on shipping those parts using what exactly? I'm willing to be that the energy used to plant-machine the car then drive it to my house on hybrid power, and the energy used to fossil-fueled 18-wheeler ship a ton of crap to my house are at least on par-- if the latter is not even worse.
And what about packaging? Because se
Safety (Score:5, Insightful)
Just so there's no misunderstanding (Score:2)
Registration? (Score:5, Funny)
So, what happens when I build this thing, and try to get it registered at my local DMV?
DMV Drone: Make?
Me: Me
DMV Drone: No, who is the manufacturer?
Me: Me
DMV Drone: (sigh). Model?
Me: Mostly done in Solidworks.
DMV Drone: NEXT!
Re:Registration? (Score:4, Funny)
Dude, you've got it all wrong. Let me help you fix it:
Me: *walks into DMV office*
DMV Drone #1: (on personal phone call) Yeah, like whatever!
DMV Drone #1: Yeah, totally!
DMV Drone #1: Oh, she needs to dump that loser!
DMV Drone #2: (just finishing up with guy ahead of you in line) Well, it's about lunch time! I'll be back in two hours. (puts up "next window" sign with an arrow pointing to drone #1)
Me: Can you help me?
DMV Drone #1: Ugh, can you hang on a minute? WHAT?!?!?!
Re:Registration? (Score:5, Informative)
Cars are a completely different matter, as the auto manufacturers have lobbied to make sure it's illegal for you to make your own car. Think of the children, etc. There are special categories for Antique and Street Rod cars, but there are restrictions against using them as daily drivers. However, trailers and motorcycles are still viable.
Hard Numbers (Score:3, Interesting)
RTFA (Score:4, Informative)
From the web site:
So the $25,000 is a guess at what you might be able to buy parts to build it for. It isn't an offer to sell a kit.
Orkmobile, Ew (Score:4, Funny)
And this changes...what? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see how this eliminates the carbon footprint of building the car. It only moves it. Unless all of your tools are alternative energy powered, and the vehicles used to deliver the parts to you are likewise alternative energy powered, nothing has been accomplished here except moving where the carbon has been emitted. I fail to see how this helps the planet.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe, but I don't think so.
The point of a hybrid is two fold, one is that energy wasted during braking is recovered and reused, and the charging is done at an RPM where the engine at its most efficient. It can be a smaller engine with less gas to produce a certain amount of energy.
A plug-in hybrid can use a more efficient power source on the grid. Even if it's from a coal plant, it's still considerably more efficient than an internal combustion engine.
The tools, welding and so on, are really a pittance
It's probably slow... (Score:4, Interesting)
I also looked for a price on this engine. The first I saw was about $2800 for a remanufactured unit, with a $700 core charge. It's used in bobcats and similar. If you're building this "car," you won't have a core, so it's going to cost you $3500.
At some point, Tesla may consider doign this. (Score:2)
This would be a waste of time in Ontario, Canada (Score:3, Informative)
I submit that this project, though good in itself, would be of no use and therefore a waste of time in Ontario, Canada because the government over there will not license a similar project from a local manufacturer, Zenn http://www.zenncars.com/ [zenncars.com].
You wonder who these folks in government are working for. I suspect that they are protecting big oil.
Their argument is that these cars have not been proven to be safe on [Canadian] roads, though these same cars are available in the USA where they have not caused any trouble.
Has anyone used these cars? How do they perform?
Genious! (Score:4, Interesting)
I think this guy is pure genius.
Instead of creating his own auto factory and taking years of research, development, marketing, and infrastructure, he just sells out the blueprints so you can build it yourself.
He doesn't have to worry about competing with other auto manufacturers, pressure from Oil companies or ambulance chasers suing him because of some manufacturing flaw.
How long until somebody else takes his design and builds something much better? I would love to see the mythbusters guys building one of these.
"and performance like a conventional automobile." (Score:2)
"...and performance like a conventional automobile."
With a top speed of 80, I don't think so. Except maybe during LA at crunch time, this car would get run over on pretty much another highway system going as slow as 80 MPH.
If you only intent to use it to commute to work and you don't need the highways, then maybe this is the car for you. But at $25k, you would have to commute to work for many years to recoup the investment.
Now, if you buy it for the ego factor, well then! $25k is cheap. But, I gotta say
Green Gimmicks (Score:2, Interesting)
Building hybrids uses machinery that pollutes the environment. The solution? Ship the parts of a hybrid individually and get your customers to put the car together themselves.
And shipping stuff doesn't pollute the environment? You ship a bunch of parts to somebody, and it's going to go by diesel truck, diesel-powered ship, and jet airplane, all notorious polluters. Plus all the boxes and packing materials are going to go into the trash bin and/or recycling bin, where they will be hauled away by still more diesel trucks.
I'm getting a little tired of these green gimmicks. People think they can spend a little money or put up with a little inconvenience and Save the Planet. They're
Underwhelmed (Score:3, Insightful)
Great idea, too bad it's fugly, more expensive than Honda's new hybrid at $25k, and basically just a motorcycle.
Call me when they make a Prius kit, or a drop in electric engine replacement for the Civic. ;)
Yawn, not them again.... (Score:4, Informative)
rqriley has been selling "plans" for decades. they have been trying to get people to build the tri-magnum for 30 years without success...
http://www.rqriley.com/tri-mag.html [rqriley.com]
anyone with an ounce of mechnaical skill can do that without the "plans" and a regular car in less time with less cost.
Hell go get a smashed prius, a light car you want to make a hybrid and simply put the drivetrain in the car. All done, really easy and not rocket science.
Hell it's not hard to replace the ECM for the prius with something that is more hackable if you really wanted to.
Building it? (Score:2)
Allow them to brag about having built the damn cars themselves and we might be entering obscenely smug territory."
Yeah, but by then their smugness is pretty much warranted.
FTA: This is what I am, this is what I do. (Score:3, Funny)
The gotchas of plug-in microcars (Score:3, Informative)
1. Microcars are so short that any non-professional driver of any vehicle with an elevated driving position is not going to see them, and you do not want to be hit by a large vehicle in a Microcar.
2. They're pretty much useless in snow or mud.
3. Without adequate alternative electricity sources, plug-in cars run on coal. The energy per unit of pollution is better than gasoline, but when people drive more because they don't have to pay for gas...
Re: (Score:2)
Prius isn't advertised at 225 MPG.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:oh well (Score:4, Insightful)
> At least that way repair shops won't have to be all confused about fixing the new technology [...]
Yeah, they can be all confused trying to figure out what the user has done to the thing.
Let's take an example we can relate to. A company advertises that they can send you the parts to a PC and directions on putting it together. Many of the unwashed public take advantage of this. Local nerdshops are inundated with half-assed assembly jobs, and the natives get really unfriendly when they're told that the best thing to do is junk it as a bad investment and buy an assembled car, er, PC off the lot, er shelf.
One could argue that this deal is for people who know what they're doing. I submit that this is not exactly true -- it's for people with $25,000 who *think* they know what they're doing.
Re:oh well (Score:5, Funny)
Hmm, could you put this in terms of a car analogy?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
This is like building Gentoo from sources to get around patented codex and binary driver license problems.
Re:oh well (Score:4, Interesting)
You built it yourself. Why would you be taking it to a repair shop?
And what is with the can't do attitude? A constant theme on /. is the "anti-science" or "anti-intelligence" attitude in the US. Why is an "anti-ability to bolt a few parts together" attitude any better?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I would assume that part of the problem would be the inherent safety problems with assembly by the untrained. Not safety with the actual assembly, though I'm sure there could be a fair share of collapses, or miss use of tools, but the safety of the vehicle on the road. What happens if as soon as the car gets up to 50 mph, the axle comes loose?
Re:oh well (Score:4, Funny)
Er, what I meant to say was,
I agree.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Mod parent up. This is likely the main reason why this project will never see the light of the day. I can't imagine a DIY vehicle getting approved over road safety.
Re:oh well (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Ever heard of Kit Cars?
It's been done for years. Sandrails (dune buggies), hot rods (some very custom ones are more or less ground up built).
Re:oh well (Score:4, Informative)
"I can't imagine a DIY vehicle getting approved over road safety."
All that is required in my state is to document a reasonable number of the major parts (to answer any questions like "how do I know they aren't stolen?") and coordinate with DMV to send an officer by to inspect it. Upon his approval title will be issued. Also works with antique vehicles from states that didn't require titles for transfer.
Re:oh well (Score:5, Interesting)
> You built it yourself. Why would you be taking it to a repair shop?
Because... it doesn't work? Because you've botched the ignition or torqued the steering improperly or pinched a wire somewhere?
> And what is with the can't do attitude? A constant theme on /. is the "anti-science" or "anti-intelligence" attitude in the US. Why is an "anti-ability to bolt a few parts together" attitude any better?
Oh, there's obviously going to be many successes. Lots of people have successfully built kit cars -- the AC Cobra replicas, Lotus Seven, etc. I'm not disputing that people who put together kit cars couldn't do this. I'm wondering aloud if this is a way to solve the carbon footprint of construction. I'm having a difficult time believing that the kind of person who wants to build a car to reduce their carbon footprint is the same kind of person who builds a Pagano in his garage.
Re:Hybrids suck anyway (Score:5, Informative)
Several things wrong with this.
1) The amount of energy needed to produce a modern battery generally only measures a few charge cycles worth. Virtually every peer-reviewed study of cars shows exactly what you'd expect: that far more energy is consumed during their lifetimes than during their construction. Your average car will burn a couple times it's own weight in fuel over its lifespan, and none of that is "recycled" like most of the car's body.
2) Yes, EVs cost more to buy than diesel cars currently. They also consume electricity which averages $0.10/kWh in the US instead of diesel which averages, what, $4.30/gal? Your average 40mpg-diesel sedan would take about 250Wh/mi electric, which equates to 9.3 cents per mile diesel and 2.5 cents per mile electric. Assuming reasonable battery longevity (i.e., either NiMH, zebra, or automotive li-ions, not lead-acid or traditional li-ions), the total cost of ownership for EVs is very favorable to them over their lifespans. This allows all sorts of methods to work around sticker shock for those who are concerned, such as longer loans, leases, surcharges on electricity fillups or battery swaps, battery rental, or so forth -- all of which give you a normal up-front cost and monthly operations costs that are still lower than what the average driver would spend on gas or diesel. And this is just with current battery costs; they're falling fast. Ener1 (parent company of battery maker EnerDel), for example, expects their cell prices to be cut in half over the next few years. Most automotive li-ion aren't even close to being limited by raw material costs.
3) Most diesel numbers are quite distorted to boot. Yes, diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines. No, they're not *that* much more efficient. Most people will look at some european diesel and lament that they're getting 50mpg or so and we can't get it here.
A) Diesel is simply a more dense fuel -- about 15% denser. Gasoline mpg != diesel mpg. Just ethanol mpgs are going to be inherently lower than gasoline due to its lower density, diesel is inherently going to get an artificial 15% boost that isn't representative of, say, it's CO2 footprint or how much oil it represents.
B) The european drive cycle is more lax than the revised EPA drivecycle, and is more similar to the old EPA drivecycle. Remember how much nicer the official numbers used to look in the US? Remember how they worked out in the real world? Same issue.
C) Sometimes the "gallons" you see on mpg numbers for european cars are imperial gallons, not US gallons. Imperial gallons are larger.
In general, a diesel car will emit around 80% as much CO2 per mile and consume about 80% as much oil chemical energy. It's a difference, and even a relevant one, but not as big of a difference as it at first appears.