Toyota Sudden Acceleration Is Driver Error 930
phantomfive writes "The NHTSA has investigated data recorders from Toyota cars whose owners claimed to have crashed due to an accelerator error. They found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't being pressed. The investigation looked at a sample of the cars, selected by the NHTSA." Jamie found this article with a superior headline at Balloon Juice.
This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
... that the throttle and brake position logging was recording correct data. If there's a fault in the ECU or software, how can you guarantee the data logging is correct?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Yep, that it does. It also presumes the sensors collected the data correctly.
NEITHER can be presumed. Toyota, you don't get out of this THAT easily.
Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Insightful)
The answer can be even more subtle. If this study is correct, then either there are a bunch of stupid Toyota drivers *OR* there is a problem with the PLACEMENT and/or SHAPE of the accelorator and break peddles. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
If 1 in 100,000 people cannot properly operate a device, it might be fair to conclude that the problem is with the people.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
But if the failure rate is lower on similar devices from other manufacturers, then it could have been designed better.
Either there are so many Toyotas out there that they are showing up a general problem with people (all the other manufacturers sell so few cars that their uncontrolled acceleration problems don't count as a trend), or a disproportionate number of bad drivers buy Toyotas (the failure rates for different populations do not offer a fair comparison), or there is a problem with the car.
It's also possible that the failure rate on other vehicles is the same, but that fact just hasn't been noticed by the media. I would have expected Toyota to point that one out by now, if it were the case.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also possible that we're hearing about it with Toyota's because of the initial media report. This could have led to many people who got into accidents in their Toyota's to go public with a report to try and shift the blame off of themselves and onto the car. Also, the media, knowing there is a hot Toyota story, was actively looking for these sorts of incidents and could have imposed a bias.
Meanwhile, the same things could have been happening in other cars (again, driver error) at the same rate but nobody really reported them because there wasn't already a story to piggyback on.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a 2009 Toyota Corolla. They have done two recall fixes. The first was the little metal piece that they inserted into the accelerator. Even after that fix was in place, there were still many reports of unintended acceleration, and the crisis was still escalating in the media. The second fix came later and was a software update that will stop the engine if the brakes and gas are fully pressed simultaneously (or at least, that's how it was described to me.) That second fix wasn't pushed out until reports of the problem were subsiding anyway, and it still didn't address any sort of cause.
Despite the fact that no "real" fix was ever released, reports of unintended acceleration subsided. Problems like this don't fix themselves unless there was really no problem to begin with.
Bandwagon effect (Score:5, Insightful)
Notice that all the problems happened at around the same time. It's not a constant failure rate.
The problem caused a massive amount of publicity and public awareness. Toyota drivers would most likely see problems where before they'd just shrug and carry on. I bet you'd see a similar effect for any manufacturer if you could create a suitable media storm.
Re:Bandwagon effect (Score:5, Insightful)
Notice that all the problems happened at around the same time. It's not a constant failure rate.
It's entirely possible that a couple of drivers did have a stuck throttle due to a floor mat or other issue. This made the news. Then a bunch of other people thought that this would be a great way to make money on a class action lawsuit by faking the same problem. It doesn't have to be a defect or bad drivers, just a bandwagon effect of people trying to scam money in tough times.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I was going to make a joke but was afraid some of you humorless mods would... of hell, who cares, mod me any way you want.
Maybe only stupid people buy Toyotas?
(ducks)
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However, if you're going to exercise your right to free speech, there's at least a chance that you'll be able to defend yourself against such Islamic pedo fucktards who would try and silence you with violence.
Please note however that I am not saying all of Islam is a bunch of pedo fucktards, I am merely talking about the subset of Islamic followers who are pedo fucktards.
Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Insightful)
there's at least a chance that you'll be able to defend yourself against such Islamic pedo fucktards who would try and silence you with violence.
Thank god for the 2nd amendment....
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Proposing a new lUser acronym:
PIDSNIT - Problem In Driver's Seat, Not In Throttle.
Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm driving a Seat, you insensitive clod!
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Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Insightful)
If you design a device that is not properly operated by 1 in 100,000 people leading to severe injury or death, AND YOUR COMPETITORS HAVE NO SUCH PROBLEM, your users may be stupid, but it's still a design flaw.
It may be that all things are equal, and the Toyota hysteria caused over reporting of problems with their cars and under reporting of problems on other makes, or it could be like the Audi 5000 - the consequences of a design decision weren't fully appreciated. (In that case, an engineer thought, "who doesn't want to be able to heel-toe?" The answer turns out to be senior citizens who buy full sized German sedans with automatic transitions.)
COMPETITORS DO HAVE PROBLEMS. LOTS... (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a list (SUA) sudden unintended acceleration complaints to the NHTSA
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/ [thetruthaboutcars.com]
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/05/sudden.acceleration.fact.check/index.html [cnn.com]
Atop that, most of SUA complaints to the NHTSA are a sham.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/89-dead-in-the-nhtsa-complaint-database-it%E2%80%99s-a-sham/ [thetruthaboutcars.com]
Its not about a design flaw, some people are on their cell phone, distracted, and in some cases plain DRUNK. One Toyota SUA had a driver with a blood alcohol level of .103 (link above). Its easier to blame the car rather then admit you were drinking or were texting on the cellphone.
In other cases it turned out to be a complete hoax (in the case of the California Prius incident):
http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html [forbes.com]
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/fox-is-sikes-a-balloon-boy/ [thetruthaboutcars.com]
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell me, swami, would 1 in 50,000 be low enough? Would 1 in 10,000? How about 1 in 1000. I mean if only 1 in 1000 fails, it would seem to be a reasonable design.
Nosiree, it's not that 1 in 100,000 failed and caused an accident, it's that there were 3000 reports of sudden acceleration. When that many people, even out of 10,000,000 vehicles have this dangerous situation, a manufacturer has a design problem on his hands.
It's like saying, "Out of all the oil drilling in the Gulf, there was only this one major accident this year, therefore, deep-water drilling is perfectly safe, and you can't expect BP to have any liability. After all, it was a fault in the design of the floor of the Gulf of Mexico that really caused the problem."
This news report is part of Toyota's public relations efforts in advance of dealing with the class action lawsuits. There's going to be more to the story.
Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.- How now! who's there?
Clearly, Shakespeare had no love for lawyers or legal proceedings, and it's fair to say his audience probably didn't either. Some lawyers have tried to frame this as actually complimentary to lawyers, arguing that Shakespeare framed the men who were having this conversation as villains, but I think that's looking too deeply into it. Shakespeare wrote for his audience, and that whole scene was obviously intended primarily as comic relief. Throwing in a lawyer joke was an easy way to get laughs then just as it is now. The line about a single sealed (signed) document making one not his own man any more is the sort of biting social commentary Shakespeare often slipped into his comedies.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Given how many times things like this have happened, you're probably right. However, we also know the first part is true. There are some truly stupid people, as well as other people that just plain shouldn't be driving for various reasons. I'd like to see/hear/read some better evidence one way or the other.
I do similar types of investigations for my job and almost everything I've seen so far (from both camps) is circumstantial and/or loaded with assumptions. Surely there must be SOME relationship between the cars this has happened with. If there is, we have our first step to recreating the problem in a controlled environment. Until we can do that...
Actually, have any of these types of accidents happened in the rest of the world? I don't recall hearing/reading about them.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
He stated that the "Black box" in the cars are not always triggered.. The black box also relies on computer/electronic signals to activate the recording. As the issue with the throttle acceleration is electronic in nature, the cause of many of the accidents may also not trigger the recording. It also apparently does not activate at low speeds (exact definition of 'low speeds' or if it also excludes 'low starting speeds' was not given)
The accidents that don't trigger the recording were not part of the sample group evaluated by the article. The WSJ Quotes toyota claiming the black box is a prototype... and the radio speaker also stated that Toyota testified in court that the "Black Box" is not in and of itself reliable for determining the cause of an accident as it's prone to failure as, already mentioned, it relies on electronic signals from the car.
My opinion: Granted, all that said, I'm sure there's people who just want a piece of the lawsuit pie and are trying to shift blame ("I swear I hit the brakes and not the accelerator") and this article *can* support that to some degree... Though, there are likely legitimate claims --- back to the radio report; the electronic 'fail safe' system apparently is not very robust at handling failures of signals (either lack of, or improper signals) from the car...
Lastly, from what I've heard these are cherry-picked by Toyota and the radio station speaker stated that there is evidence by Toyota technicians a problem does exist (contrary to the article) -- however he feels this is simply the Public Relations team of Toyota doing it's job and showing that there's no issue (or the issue is more rare than news credits due to 'false claims').
Side note: the WSJ claims a similar problem arose in 1989
Side note 2: I'm simply trying to relay what I heard as criticism to the article to provide an alternate viewpoint/more information. I personally do not own a Toyota/Lexus, and otherwise am not attempting to defame anyone/start a debate on the issue.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
This has happened with all automakers. Every automaker that I can think of has had a recall for floor mats interfering with the accelerator pedal. Honda had so many it redesigned the pedals on the new Civic to pivot from the floor instead of the firewall so the mats can't get under them.
This is just for model year 2009, I've seen more complete tables as well...
Unintended Acceleration - All Brands [cars.com]
Toyota got nailed because it got a lot of publicity. The other brands are all nervously waiting for someone to point the finger at them, knowing they all have these complaints... even with mounting evidence that it's driver error.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
> Surely there must be SOME relationship between the cars this has happened with
Why would you possibly suggest that?
This happens all the time. There's a news story, and then suddenly everyone's complaining about the same thing. It doesn't make a difference if it's actually _true_.
Its called "mass hysteria", although the term should be changed to be less loaded. But the effect is real, has been measured for hundreds of years, and effects practically all human endeavor equally.
Maury
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
> I don't recall hearing/reading about them.
Oh please... google up "sudden acceleration".
One of the stories this will turn up is the recall of Audi 5000's in the 1980s. 60 Minutes covered the story and claimed to demonstrate the effect. They actually faked it with a compressed air bottle.
This topic has come up dozens of times, on dozens of models, in dozens of countries. To date, 100% of the time it's driver error.
Maury
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
No, that particular crash happened because the accelerator got stuck under the floor mat. That is one of the two categories of actual hardware errors that have been identified and is mentioned in TFA in addition to user error. Of course TFS doesn't mention it because as usual, slashdot is trolling for views and comments.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
And during the course of dialing 911 and explaining his problem nobody in the car ever thought to shift the car into neutral.
That tends to solve uncontrolled acceleration problems easily and quickly.
And, yes, I would be inclined to believe that someone who couldn't think of that may indeed have a problem telling the difference between the brake and gas pedals.
Loaner Car and bad Interface Design (Score:5, Informative)
The 2009 Lexus ES 350 that California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor was driving was a "loaner" vehicle given to him temporarily while his car was being repaired.
It has a "starter button" instead of an ignition key, and requires that the bnutton be depressed for 3 or more seconds if the car is in gear, or it may not function to turn the car off at all over certain velocities.
The shifter has a strange configuration which allows it to "emulate" a manual transmission while it is really an automatic transmission. The "N" position is also used to shift up a gear.
You can almost make it out in this photo at [motortrend.com]http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_1004_2010_buick_lacrosse_2010_lexus_es_350_comparison/photo_22.html [motortrend.com] .
Article about why the starter button and transmission human interface may have been factors in the officer not being able to get the car out of gear:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/starter-button-a-factor-in-runaway-lexus-es350/ [thetruthaboutcars.com]
Article about the crash :
http://www.sandiego6.com/mostpopular/story/Santee-CHP-officer-Saylor-killed-Lexus-accelerator/AzYjOhtvFE2mIuxTtxrK4Q.cspx [sandiego6.com]
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Not quite. "N" has its own position [skitch.com].
Although I admit I too was confused at first by the picture. It seems "N" and Tiptronic "+" should be on different planes.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Surely there must be SOME relationship between the cars this has happened with.
1) They are lower in price.
2) Toyota thus sells more of them.
3) The larger volume of those particular cars on the road means a greater likelihood that there are more bad drivers behind the wheel of that particular car.
(Ok, yes, this is incredibly simplistic...but I do think it is on point)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and it likely is mostly stupid people or people trying to take advantage, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of an actual problem with Toyotas. There likely IS some kind of problem and it's just been blown way out of proportion.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
have any of these types of accidents happened in the rest of the world? I don't recall hearing/reading about them.
Either you're very young or you have a short memory. There have been many cases of sudden acceleration. There have even been other major cases involving Volvo and others going back to the 1980s when computers first started having significant engine control.
In fact actual (less reported) cases go back decades; I'd suspect to when we started having automatic transmissions where it became easy to
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, in the previous case that involved mechanical linkages they were able to determine that there were no possible mechanical expalnations for the sudden acceleration when the driver stepped on the brake. He was able to find medical explanations that would acount for otherwise experienced safe drivers suddenly starting to hit the accelerator when they meant to hit the brakes, this accounted for a large number of the cases, most of the other cases involved young, inexperienced drivers or drivers who were driving the vehicle for the first time,
Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Informative)
Go read the article. Toyota acknowledges the problems with the sticky gas pedals and the floor mats, but denies there's a problem with the software/firmware. The article covers this thoroughly. The NHTSA, totally independently of Toyota (assuming you trust the reporting), examined some data recorders from cars where the driver claimed that they slammed on the brakes but the brakes didn't respond. The NHTSA found evidence that those drivers were actually pressing the accelerator, not the brake.
The data recorders, which the NHTSA used for their testing, are prototypes. Toyota has never claimed otherwise, and indeed has said that they are not reliable in determining the cause of a crash. This is straight out of the article. AS for Woz' particular problem, it wasn't addressed by the article at all, so I can't comment on it.
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Informative)
RTFA:
"The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government. Toyota hasn't been involved in interpreting the data."
and
"Still, since the start of Toyota's troubles late last summer, the Japanese company hasn't blamed drivers for any of the sudden-acceleration incidents, though in many cases the company couldn't find another cause. Toyota President Akio Toyoda has said the company won't pin the blame on customers for its problems as part of its public-relations response.
"An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his litigation. "Toyota has always taken the position that the electronic data recorder system is not reliable," said Tab Turner, the Little Rock, Ark., lawyer.
"A Toyota spokesman said the company considers the device "a prototype tool. It wasn't designed to tell us exactly what happened in an accident. It was designed to tell us whether our systems were operating properly.""
Toyota aren't "trying to get out of it that easily". They appear to have behaved commendably.
Re: (Score:2)
Right, the mechanical brake linkage regularly failed at the same time as the brake sensor failed to no pedal and the accelerator sensor failed to full pedal.
Implying that the stupid driver was mashing the accelerator instead of the brake.
And the officer in the cop car side-to-side of the runaway car (in some instances) also failed to notice that the stupid driver was mashing the accelerator instead of the brake.
Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Insightful)
> And the officer in the cop car side-to-side of the runaway car (in some instances) also failed
> to notice that the stupid driver was mashing the accelerator instead of the brake.
Umm, unless the cop had x-ray vision, how could you expect him to know one way or the other?
The story in question is a hoax. Duh. I mean, it's _obviously_ a hoax.
He said the gas peddle stuck, that he was standing on the brakes, and that he finally stopped it by using the parking brake. Ok, let's consider this...
1) brakes are always stronger than the engine. There is no car in the world that will not stop when braked, even if the accelerator is held full down. It's a basic safety requirement. The Prius has an _additional_ system that cuts power when the brakes are held down.
2) the emergency brake operates through a limited strength wire that pulls only the rear brakes (typically) and has far less braking power than the brake peddle.
3) every car on the planet will mechanically cut all power to the drive wheels by shifting into neutral.
So, in order for his story to be true, the gas peddle had to fail in a very peculiar way, the brake peddle had to fail in a very peculiar way, and the parking brake had to gain an order of magnitude in strength, all at the same time.
Then, all of those problems had to mysteriously disappear when various engineers tested the vehicle over the next two days.
Or he was pressing the gas peddle.
Occam's razor.
Maury
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Occam's razor.
The simplest answer is not always correct.
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Other manufa
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This assumes... (Score:5, Insightful)
If this study is right - it sounds almost like a bandwagon effect
Exactly. The Fine Article fails to raise that point, yet tantalizingly provides a graph of the number of reported complaints which follows a short term fad trajectory. Logically, if there were a bad batch of parts out there, the graph of the cars manufacture date vs complaints would look like that graph. Or if it were a bad design, the graph would resemble the very long term model year production graphs not a short term PR graph.
The only common feature of the problem seems to be that people whom crashed their Toyota during certain months were very likely to blame the car. Basically just a witch hunt. I feel confident driving my wife's Toyota.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's assume that the sensors were logging the wrong data. That would require assuming that the NHSTA was too stupid to be able to figure that out.
It's entirely possible, mind you, for bunglers to occupy government jobs, but if I had to bet money on it, I'd put my money on the NHSTA lab people being at least moderately competent.
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I would like to think that the engineers investigating the issue would have that same obvious insight. The guy on the left here [wsj.net] certainly looks sick enough of dealing with this crap to look into that sort of detail.
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... that the throttle and brake position logging was recording correct data. If there's a fault in the ECU or software, how can you guarantee the data logging is correct?
I would hope that enough independent data is recorded from the vehicle to avoid this kind of mistakes.
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This assumes...
... that the throttle and brake position logging was recording correct data. If there's a fault in the ECU or software, how can you guarantee the data logging is correct?
It also assumes that the folks at the NHTSA know what they're doing.
If they do, then they've assured themselves that the data logging is correct.
If they don't, then we've got far bigger problems then just these Toyotas.
Strangely enough (Score:3, Informative)
... that the throttle and brake position logging was recording correct data. If there's a fault in the ECU or software, how can you guarantee the data logging is correct?
Toyota agrees with you: From TFA:
Toyota has always taken the position that the electronic data recorder system is not reliable," said Tab Turner, the Little Rock, Ark., lawyer.
A Toyota spokesman said the company considers the device "a prototype tool. It wasn't designed to tell us exactly what happened in an accident. It was designed to tell us whether our systems were operating properly."
Re:Strangely enough (Score:4, Interesting)
Reading comprehension fail. First, delete the first sentence, because it is uttered by a lawyer. You cannot trust as lawyer to quote his opponent accurately.
Second, what Toyota is saying in the second sentence is that the black box is not designed to collect all data about an automobile accident for courtroom purposes, it is designed to collect data about what the subsystems were doing for engineering purposes. That's plenty sufficient to tell whether a pedal was down or not.
Re:This assumes... (Score:4, Insightful)
You can't, obviously. However, since the logs agree with ECU, it's likely that the problem is in the throttle sensor, the throttle itself (maybe it stucks to bottom), or the placement of throttle (so the driver accidentally pushes it down without meaning to).
In other words, the ECU works just fine, but the controls send it bogus data - namely, they send "pedal to the metal" when the driver didn't intend this.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That sounds optimistic. Honda didn't start switching to electronic throttles in its mainstream models until 2006. The very first one they ever made was the S2000 released in 2000. Mitsubishi didn't start until 2008. Acura in 2004. Nissan in 2006. The first GM I'm aware of was the Malibu in 2008, but I'm less familiar with that brand.
I can't say for sure on the rest of the brands, but given the above list it seems impossible for the majority of cars in the last 10 years to have a drive-by-wire throttle.
I am not surprised.... (Score:5, Informative)
I am not surprised.... Same thing happened to Audi back in the day [manhattan-institute.org].
One thing for me that was a dead giveaway was that every single report regarding the Toyota sudden acceleration issue happened in the good old United States (Same for Audi, by the way). Statistically, it's very unlikely that such a problem would only happen in a single country even though these cars do not differ significantly between different countries. You'd expect a few deaths in Japan, France, German, the United Kingdom where Toyota cars are also very popular.
Too bad for Toyota that their brand has been permanently damaged in the US. (Just ask Audi how well it went for them the years after the accusations). GM, Ford and Chrysler are probably very happy about this.
Re: (Score:2)
Toyota got a good wake-up call in the process -- they have issues like any large company and they needed a slap, even if it was for the wrong thing. I don't like seeing mass hysteria in action, it's ugly, but at least it make the corporations adequately fear the consumer.
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Re:I am not surprised.... (Score:5, Informative)
GM, Ford and Chrysler are probably very happy about this.
Whom coincidentally spend lots of advertising dollars on the media people whom manufactured the Toyota problem.
Even more interesting is the graph of reported problems. Fits a very short term PR profile not a manufacturing defect profile.
Re:I am not surprised.... (Score:5, Informative)
There were reports of stuck accelerators here in Australia for a while but it was the Fords not Toyotas.
Basically some guy rang police up on the freeway and claimed his cruise control was stuck at 80. There was a police chase/escort and eventually he was stopped. Soon after the incident there was a ton of idiots all ringing up talkback radio for days on end claiming the same thing happened to them in their Fords and that's why they crashed or got a speeding fine.
In the end the real storey started circulating. The guy who initially made the claim seemed to have issues. During the chase the police asked him to brake and he said it didn't work. They then asked him to change gear to neutral and he claimed it had no effect. They asked him to turn the key on a car with an old fashion manual key and he claimed that didn't work. His car was inspected afterwards and no fault was found.
In the end the reports of problems quickly disappeared. All the bandwagon jumpers suddenly shut the hell up.
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/no-sign-of-cruisecontrol-faults-20100107-lwrq.html [drive.com.au]
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And unlike Audi, Toy
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Just to play devil's advocate for a sec, America is the land of the automatic gearbox. In those other countries, the average Toyota is likely to have an extra pedal that can conveniently cut the drive to the wheels: the clutch.
Could the popularity of automatics in the US have a bearing on the rate of accidents?
I personally do think this is an issue that has been blown out of proportion by those looking to cash in on it, for the various reasons proposed in this discussion: business interests of non-Toyota co
Re:I am not surprised.... (Score:4, Informative)
It's the NHTSA's line, not Toyota's.
Re:I am not surprised.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Or maybe it shows that they were taking the customers' complaints seriously before realising the obvious truth. This has happened to me before when I start trying to diagnose IT support issues based on what a user is saying, I expect something horrific has happened, but then when I actually go to their desk and ask them to demonstrate the problem then realise that they've just been using the wrong terminology or simply are idiots.
One user was complaining of a "blue screen of death!" on his computer and it just turned out that he hadn't turned his main monitor on, and the plain blue windows desktop was showing on his laptop's screen, which he assumed was the fabled BSOD.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Not conclusive (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Also, if my car would suddenly accelerate, and my brakes didn't work, I'd also try to push the throttle, to see if it was stuck or something...
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No, because it's dangerous/difficult to drive otherwise. When I first learned to drive I never did; I'd roll backwards down the hill 2-3 feet, or I'd slow down in 5th gear and stall, or be left in neutral and need to accelerate. Eventually I started going through gears, but the car would jerk a LOT.
At a point, I learned to touch the throttle to raise the engine to around 2000RPM, and release the brake with my heel while releasing the clutch, so I'd catch and move without drifting back at all (and without
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
presumably using the exact same input controlling the engine
That being the problem. Multiple inputs, not input. You need to fail the gas partially to wide open and the brakes completely off.
Or, you need to fail the engine computer, the ABS computer, and the logging computer simultaneously with the same problem.
The problem has to be completely unreproducible, and cannot be explained by subsequent testing or disassembly.
Finally per the graph in the article, the problem somehow occurs in direct proportion to television coverage and with a slight delay after the PR ha
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A very useful point it actually is since now it shows there would have to be TWO faults for the story to add up in the favour of the drivers. Both the sensor sensing the position of the break and some kind of weird accelerating issues would have to independently occur. As there is a much less likely chance of this rather than a simple single point of failure the l
"dozens of data recorders" (Score:2)
I don't understand how these data recorders work - but I'm guessing they're electronic/computer controller rather than mechanical - in which case, surely it's possible for the brakes to not be pressed according to this recorder/computer even when they are? i.e. could that the root of the problem? (whatever control system is in charge can't "see" the brakes are pressed and hence the press isn't recorded either)
False positives (Score:2)
Certainly there were a large number of people who either purposefully, or subconsciously, blamed their accidents on this well-known issue that was plastered all over the news. There were probably a small number of people who had accidents on purpose to try and make a quick buck.
The real question is, statistically, are people more likely to be involved in these sort of accidents in specific models of Toyota than in other vehicles? At some point during all of this I did read news articles to that affect. I
Brake smoke? (Score:2)
No (Score:3, Interesting)
Stop watching fox news.
ANY such evidence would be EXTREMELY easy to spot. The police would notice it in a second as would anyone investigating the accident. The entire claim was that the brakes did NOT work. A toyota won't easily go through its brakes. It ain't super cars.
What Else did the Data Recorders Show? (Score:4, Insightful)
Did any of the drivers, when they found that the car was not responding to them taking their foot from the accelerator, shift the car out of gear? You know, that position on the lever between "D" and "R"? One of the first things I was taught was to slow the car down in an emergency you put your right foot on the break pedal, pressing hard, and with your left foot, push the clutch pedal in all the way - that disconnects the engine from the driving wheels.
Now, I realize that most drivers in the US these days would recognize a clutch pedal or a manual gearbox if it hit them over the head - but in an automatic transmission the same principal applies - shift into neutral (and the "N" doesn't mean "Now we are almost ready to go"....)
I guess no one wants to make the point that poor driver training and lack of ability contributed to the accidents - hey, the ambulance chasing lawyers can't sue anyone over that, and besides, we can't have any restrictions on people driving (like, are they smart enough and capable of controlling a two ton vehicle that can travel at upwards of 80 miles an hour).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There are several other things that a driver could have tried to slow or stop a car that's not responding to the accelerator or brakes, such as:
- Use the emergency brake. It's there for a reason, and could help you slow down. Best done after shifting into neutral - otherwise the brake is competing with the engine.
- Cut the ignition. This will probably destroy the engine, but if it stops the car it may save your life.
- If it's an automatic transmission, shift into park. This will likely do horrible things to
Re:What Else did the Data Recorders Show? (Score:4, Informative)
I don't disagree that these are all somewhat reasonable actions to try if all else failed. However...
Cutting the ignition won't destroy the engine. It can lock the steering if they turn the key all the way back though, which is why it's not generally recommended.
Shifting into park at speed is the same as shifting into neutral except the parking pawl will be skipping on top of its slot making a fast clicking noise. When you hit under 5mph or so the car would slam to a halt or the parking pawl would disintegrate.
Shifting into low gear won't happen in a modern auto transmission at speed. They won't lock into 2 until you are under 50mph or so.
But yeah, there's plenty they could have tried instead of focusing on praying. I guess that's what happens when you think an imaginary man is going to save you.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
So I'm curious how many of these drivers did any of these.
I'm curious how well you would do if faced with sudden wide open acceleration while frantically pressing down on the brakes and trying to avoid traffic. Also note that in the case of the Lexus crash (the one with the 911 recording that really started the whole media frenzy), the ignition was keyless. To turn off the engine, you had to depress the switch for 3 seconds.
I'm really sick of the assholes talking about Darwin awards because somebody didn't have the presence of mind to switch the car into neutral.
hmmm (Score:2)
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Re:hmmm (Score:4, Interesting)
No they didn't.
They got into a little hot water over not using the original tach reading do to there shaky quality they used en edited tach. They have since switched to the actually footage.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-recall-electronic-design-flaw-linked-toyota-runaway-acceleration-problems/story?id=9909319 [go.com]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So some dude rewired the car to short out the throttle position sensor? And then was shocked when it worked?
Basically he is saying that damaged wiring would prevent electronic records of a malfunction. But, duh, if there is damaged wiring before the accident, then there would still be damaged wiring after the accident, and Toyota/NHTSA would be able to find the problem.
hurr durr I'm a professor derp derp derp.
Almost Always User Error (Score:5, Insightful)
Brake lights are controlled by a simple switch in the brake assembly. Regardless of how much TOyota may have jacked up the throttle system I doubt they were able to screw that up too. Sounds like most these idiots are too stupid to own a car
Re:Almost Always User Error (Score:4, Insightful)
Ms. Marseille sticks by her story. "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment," she said.
It was really funny to read that comment especially after I just finished reading this article on the misinformed believing lies over the truth [slashdot.org].
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The woman is right to be upset.
You assume that the lights are controlled by a switch and a simple circuit and that's all. But it could be more complex than that, if the entire system is fly-by-wire (which it is). If the computer is somehow misreading inputs in a system such as this, then it certainly is possible that the driver has the brake on but no lights and no brakes.
My father-in-law had this problem happen to him in his Rav4 three times and told me about it months before the news or Toyota ever ment
Car & Driver: Brakes overpower open throttle (Score:5, Informative)
br> Key facts:
1) In a Toyota, shifting into neutral while the throttle is wide open, will disengage the engine from the transmission and slow the car down. So all of the people claiming that these cars are all computers and not mechanical so it still wouldn't work, are full of crap.
2) They brought a standard Toyota Camry up to highway speed (including a 100 MPH test) and hit the brakes while still holding down the accelerator. The result? The brakes were able to overpower the engine and slow down the car. The faster your initial speed, the longer it took, but the distances, even at 100 MPH, were reasonably safe.
C/D's conclusion without actually analyzing the specific reported incidents, was that the most likely cause of these accidents was driver error, specifically people hitting the gas instead of the brake. The natural instinct for any driver if a car starts accelerating uncontrollably is to hit the brakes, which C/D has shown is sufficient to slow the car on its own. If that wasn't sufficient, then the thing to do is to shift into neutral. This real data from the incidents seems to support the gas instead of brake theory, and the statistics showing a sharp spike (and subsequent sharp drop-off) in "unintended acceleration" incidents after Toyota instated the recall for sticky accelerators and at a time when the US auto industry has one foot in the grave, Toyota is looking more and more in the clear on this one.
GIGO (Score:4, Insightful)
If there was a fault in the electronics, the data recorders could be recording incorrect data. If anything, this raises more questions. It is completely out of the ordinary for a driver to have the throttle wide open under any circumstances. And for it to be happening to so many drivers, is very suspicious.
Toyota cars seem to hate the elderly... (Score:4, Insightful)
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/I-am-not-afraid-of-my-Toyota-Prius-87361597.html [washingtonexaminer.com]
http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1043440_toyota-sudden-acceleration-is-it-all-older-drivers-fault [thecarconnection.com]
Not definitive, but enlightening. Another group also proved that a runaway car with open throttle can still be stopped by the brakes anyway - they tried it with multiple cars - even a 500+ horsepower car.
"Women Drivers" (Score:3, Interesting)
Ms. Marseille said in an interview Tuesday that she was entering a parking space near a library when she heard the engine roar. "I looked down and my foot was still on the brake, so I did not have my foot on the gas pedal," she said.
Police in Sheboygan Falls, Wis., investigated and believe driver error was to blame, Chief Steven Riffel said Tuesday. He said surveillance video showed that the brake lights didn't illuminate until after the crash. But Mr. Riffel said that determination is preliminary and that his agency has turned over the investigation to NHTSA.
Based on the black box data, NHTSA investigators found that the brake was not engaged and the throttle was wide open, according to a person familiar with the matter.
Ms. Marseille sticks by her story. "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment," she said.
So, every piece of evidence we have, and we have many, shows this woman panicked and jammed on the gas instead of the brake, and yet she remains thoroughly convinced she didn't do it. It's drivers like that who give credit to the phrase "woman drivers". But in this case we just have a bad driver crying "sexism!" as a defense. No, ma'am, you just need to fix your brain-foot coordination.
It's also interesting to look at the graph of reported incidents. Although there was no related changes in Toyota production, just look at that two month spike. That's caused by people, not by hardware. The number of bad drivers remains constant, and the performance of the vehicles remains constant. The only thing that surged was the number of people trying to blame their bad driving on Toyota. I'd bet that had they not gotten all the media-frenzy publicity to start with, that spike would not exist, that's just people latching onto a scapegoat. I'd love to see the graph of media coverage on toyota below that graph, to see the correlation. Bet there's about a two week lag from media to claims. Gotta feel bad for them, they're taking a lot of unfair heat, AND they're doing a better job than I would in holding their tongue when you know they want to just flat out call it, driver error. I don't think I could have that kind of resolve given the situation. They've waited until a lot of time has passed and the amount of evidence is overwhelming before starting to take that position publicly. And then Ms Marseille still insists she was hitting the brake when the black box AND the ramp cameras both say otherwise. The only thing left to debate here is whether she's genuinely that mistaken, or whether she's just stubbornly continuing to cover for her bad driving.
The two remaining issues are slow-return accelerators and floor mat traps. I don't see how a slow return to idle accelerator is going to significantly contribute to a crash, you still have the brake. (and so far, almost all the accidents investigated have shown NO brake use) As for the floor mats, heck, *I* have had that happen to me once in my cutlass. That's not a Toyota problem. That's a problem of floor mat creep that goes unnoticed for a long time (weeks) without the driver readjusting it. Again, driver error.
For a tech site, I'm surprised no one has asked... (Score:3, Funny)
Wait, I thought Woz said (Score:3, Interesting)
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Re:my first thought was... (Score:5, Funny)
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Mainly I feel the conspiracy isn't all that profoundly deep in this because that this is the government we're talking about after all... what other bunch of
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If it was purely driver error it would show up on quite a variety of cars, not just specific Toyota models.
Unless the heavy news coverage resulted in a bandwagon effect.
Well, I have experience of both (Score:3, Interesting)
. I don't think you do. Electronic systems can incorporate various levels of redundancy in ways that mechanical systems can't. How many cars have dual push/pull systems on their accelerator cables? And, anyway, how do you connect an accelerator cable to a solenoid-controlled fuel injection system? - which is self-adaptive and far more reliable than any carb or mechanical injection system.
On my car, there are two accelerator position sensors and they have to
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The driver might give up on trying the brakes after the brake fade and focus on steering alone. Obviously these people that have these accidents have fallen into some kind of hopeless submission or they would try things like shifting into neutral... it's not unreasonable that someone who has given up enough to not even try to kill the engine or shift to have also given up on the brakes.
I get the impression that a lot of these situations are not long enough to run through options. They're usually described