Following Huawei Report, US Rejects UN Telecom Proposals 150
jjp9999 writes "The Epoch Times reports that on Monday, the same day the Intelligence Committee released its report cautioning against Chinese telecom companies Huawei and ZTE, the U.S. said it will reject major changes to telecom at the World Administrative Telegraph and Telephone Conference in Dubai this December. The UN conference will be the first of its kind since 1988, and its members are pressing the U.S. to hand control of governing the Internet over to the International Telecommunication Union (ITU). Huawei and ZTE are both members of the ITU. Terry Kramer, the U.S. special envoy to the conference, said the US opposes proposals from some of the 'nondemocratic nations' that include tracking and monitoring content and user information, which 'makes it very easy for nations to monitor traffic.'"
How dare you! (Score:1, Insightful)
Terry Kramer, the U.S. special envoy to the conference, said the US opposes proposals from some of the 'nondemocratic nations' that include tracking and monitoring content and user information, which 'makes it very easy for nations to monitor traffic.'"
This quote is so rife with arrogance that it makes me vomit, coming from a
government that does nothing but blatantly spend money and spy on it's people.
Re:How dare you! (Score:5, Insightful)
And yet the Internet is still safer in American hands than being handed over lock, stock and barrel to the UN. As bad as the US may be on occasion, it's still better than handing the keys over to the likes of China and Saudi Arabia.
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Re:How dare you! (Score:5, Insightful)
The second the internet leaves US control (as much as spying is idiotic and unacceptable), even the concept of free speech is over. Instantly.
So think about how internet is in russia, china? If they hand control over you get that globally. So basically the US needs to stop doing a shit job managing the internet - but giving it up to the UN will make things worse.
Re:How dare you! (Score:4, Insightful)
So think about how internet is in russia, china? If they hand control over you get that globally.
Well, that escalated quickly... Why do you think that? We're closer to having that right now where is the government of one country that controls everything than if it is given to the UN, where they'd go through a voting involving several nations...
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voting involving several nations..
and that would be far less democratic (at least for us in the USA) than it is now. Just look at what happens with the EC.
Trust me Washing politicians would love nothing more than to be able to shield themselves from accountability to their electorate, by hiding behind the actions of some politician appointee at the UN, they can pretend to disagree with later.
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I don't see a way to be less democratic than now, where one country "controls" something used by more than half the world's population.
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The US only has control because everyone else wants to use the US's system. Any country could choose to replace DNS within their country. Look at China. They don't want to because that is work. They'd rather just take the existing system than build their own.
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I don't see a way to be less democratic than now, where one country "controls" something used by more than half the world's population.
They can build their own. Considering the immense US-based public and private investment that has been made on everything Internet (from R&D to commercialization), I would say the US has every right to keep it under control.
You don't want it? Build your own interweebz infrastructure.
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Sure, let's do our own and keep the US off from it.
I'm pretty sure it would do more harm to you than us...
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the US may have a lot of problems (and getting worse) but at least it tries
By the USA's metric? (Score:1)
And on the world freedom ranking chart, the USA are pretty low down on the list.
So if it's all about how democratic and free the controlling country is, then maybe Norway should get control of the internet.
Re:How dare you! (Score:4, Insightful)
Chinese companies make almost every circuit board, CPU, and radio comm chip in the world. They've had backdoors in "your" internet for over a decade. This happened in the name of reducing labor costs and breaking unions, and increasing profits for American companies. Now we really don't "control" anything with electrons flipping about anymore. You don't ever know what hidden capabilities are built into devices; they could lie hidden, sleepers, until needed. So who controls what is moot. We gave up control a long time ago.
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That's not giving up control. that's giving up privacy. They are not the same. Even if they have backdoors into everything we still maintain control of the actual devices.
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Oh crap and bullshit, it's all about who gets to profit from the core domain names and not just locally within individual markets but upon a global basis. No matter the delusions, the US will not retain control over the core domain names in other countries, that will inevitably come to an end. Not to forget any country that tortures, murders by remote control, ignores justice when even it suits and, enters into war based upon corporate greed can lay claim to freedom of anything. For the last forty years th
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Yeah...but most of them had it coming.
And not that they will be missed all that badly....
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There is a gradient here--and it's unfortunately slippery at both ends.
What, are you saying that sliding/falling towards freedom is a bad thing? Screw that! And screw the Chinese, and anybody else who thinks censorship is a good thing. We must never let people like that ever have any control over any communication system. I don't care if they have a 99.999% of the majority. Censorship is bad, no matter what anybody thinks. We have to make the internet technically uncontrolable. No matter what it takes, and
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No there is no gradient here. I don't think any information or expression should be subject to censorship ever. Which is not to suggest the government can't or should not try and keep some state secrets.
Even things like CP should not be restricted. Now the production of it should be illegal. It should constitute "rape of child" and it should probably be a capital crime; but the mere possession of a photo should not be.
Re:How dare you! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How dare you! (Score:4, Insightful)
well, yes.
Re:How dare you! (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:How dare you! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How dare you! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yours sincerely,
Europe.
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"OUR" internet? Are you under the impression that the US owns the internet?
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since al gore built it, yes
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Well, still, you are free to set up your own computers as peers on the internet today...your own servers with your own rules.
Create your own email servers, ssh servers, news servers, chatrooms, irc, hell...create your own private social network with your rules.
You might have to pay a bit more and get a business connection so the ports aren't blocke
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They have an interest in making sure your data is safe and not using it unless there are lives on the line, there is a diplomatic cost to using the data in any other case, so unless you are a terrorist they may gather but will not steal so obviously. Remember if you live in a democracy leaking the fact that they have been getting and using such data, except in the most vital cases, will hurt the American government, but not the Chinese ect. This does not mean that your data is safe with them, if you are
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Yes, your data is safer when monitored by the NSA. Because if the Internet is handed over to the UN, you will be monitored by the Russian government, the Chinese government, the Iranian government, the North Korean government, the Australian government, and any other government that wants to monitor you, i.e. all of them. And by the way, IT WILL STILL BE MONITORED BY THE NSA!
I sure hope you weren't planning on saying anything bad about Mohammed. Or saying anything good about Nazis. Or mentioning Tiananm
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Yes, your data is safer when monitored by the NSA. Because if the Internet is handed over to the UN, you will be monitored by the Russian government, the Chinese government, the Iranian government, the North Korean government, the Australian government, and any other government that wants to monitor you, i.e. all of them. And by the way, IT WILL STILL BE MONITORED BY THE NSA!
I sure hope you weren't planning on saying anything bad about Mohammed. Or saying anything good about Nazis. Or mentioning Tiananmen Square. Or calling Taiwan a country. Or browsing for porn. Because these would all be illegal once the UN took control.
I don't like what the US has done with its stewardship over the Internet, but I see it as the lesser of far more than two evils.
Whilst I hate the idea of being monitored, if we're going to assume that we're going to be monitored whatever we do, I would prefer the playing field to be levelled - if the US gets to monitor everyone then so should everyone else.
Re:How dare you! (Score:4, Insightful)
Simple monitoring can be circumvented by encryption, and opensource software is safe from backdoors. It's much easier to defend against spying than censorship.
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Don't believe everything you see on TV. If there are secret easy-button crypto-breaking computers out there, why is cryptography illegal for export?
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And yet the Internet is still safer in American hands than being handed over lock, stock and barrel to the UN. As bad as the US may be on occasion, it's still better than handing the keys over to the likes of China and Saudi Arabia.
I am European (Greek) and i trust USA way more than China and Saudi Arabia, but i also trust some European countries, some of them more than the USA - so i think the internet will be safer in American AND European hands.
Re:How dare you! (Score:5, Insightful)
Ask Wikileaks, Assange, and anyone who supported them financially about how much better it is. "Better" depends entirely on whether or not you are fucking with American power. The Chinese do the same with whomever fucks with their power. This is about an empire taking over the internet at its core. DNS and so many other things should be decentralized and encrypted. No power base in the world will let that happen - they need to monitor us to maintain power.
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All true... and back to the question that matters.
What power would you rather be ruled by?
The Americans, The Chinese, The Russians, The Arabs?
Yeah, sorry... I'm still going with the Americans.
Perhaps there is a utopia out there somewhere where power is distributed and no one rules. Until that time, the best we as people can do is keep perspective to choose the best power to rule us.
Heck, I'd even choose the Americans over the EU. The Americans value free speech more than than EU who'd probably move quickl
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Decentralized DNS would inevitably bring back the late 90's market of snatching up and hoarding domain names and hawking them on ebay for millions. Want to pick up a new domain name for your business, but somebody else already has it with just a website that says "this domain is for sale"? I hope you have really good financing.
Or worse, when somebody loses their domain key, then nobody gets that domain. And when computers get fast enough to forge those keys in short order (maybe not at the time of their cre
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What world are you living in? The EU isn't China.
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Offensive speech is already banned in many European nations. Germany, for example, has penalties of up to a year in jail for insulting someone, and up to three years in jail for insulting religions like Christianity and Islam. And, yes, these laws are being enforced.
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What are you talking about? Please provide sources and citations because it sounds like you're talking out of your ass, just like when you talked about European democracy [slashdot.org].
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http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beleidigung [wikipedia.org]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beschimpfung_von_Bekenntnissen,_Religionsgesellschaften_und_Weltanschauungsvereinigungen [wikipedia.org]
Those statements were correct as well. Here is a page that summarizes the data pretty well (it points to sources):
http://www.stop- [stop-kirch...ntionen.de]
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Look, you didn't know that these laws existed so you asked for evidence. I gave it to you. Google Translate can translate these laws just fine if you still don't believe me.
The US government transfers massive amounts of money to churches in violation of the first amendment? Really? Where?
Re:How dare you! (Score:5, Insightful)
Ask Wikileaks, Assange, and anyone who supported them financially about how much better it is. "Better" depends entirely on whether or not you are fucking with American power. The Chinese do the same with whomever fucks with their power. This is about an empire taking over the internet at its core. DNS and so many other things should be decentralized and encrypted. No power base in the world will let that happen - they need to monitor us to maintain power.
I hate to break it to you but you can't take over something you invented and were the primary driver of. Many other countries have made huge contributions but the Internet was invented in the USA and it was US universities, companies, etc that made it what it is today.
The open nature of the Internet is due to the open nature of US and other western universities, along with some of the strongest free-speech protections to be found in any country of similar size or position.
Given all the options, and much like democracy as a form of government, US control seems like the "least worst".
Define US (Score:2)
I hate to break it to you but you can't take over something you invented and were the primary driver of. ... Given all the options, and much like democracy as a form of government, US control seems like the "least worst".
You're close, but the generalizing hides some important internal distinctions. The Internet was used in the early years by US universities for research (basic science and technology, some of it military related), governed by an attitude of sharing that is fundamental to science. However, that has since shifted to include significant usage and governing by politics and business. Politicians and businesses do not operate on the free sharing that science does. Thus "US control" means different things to differ
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false equivalency (Score:2)
every country in the world does bad things. you have to quantify
legal and social status of political expression is dramatically freer in the US than in china
legal and social status of sexual expression is definitely freer in the US than in china
perfect in the USA? absolutely not. are there some countries that do better than the USA? yes. on some kinds of expression, not all
such that keeping control of the internet in the USA is a good option if you are concerned with internet freedoms. the best option? mayb
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[Citation needed]
To be fair, as a European, I'd much rather live in the US than in say China or Saudi Arabia, but that comment the parent quoted really does make me vomit just a little as well. It seems all our governments are very much into spying on their citizens (and everyone else, really), and while I have no doubt the US' reasons for it are far less sinister than China's, but I still feel like it's a false argument. Also, the UN doesn't exactly equate to "the likes of China and Saudi Arabia".
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And yet the Internet is still safer in American hands than being handed over lock, stock and barrel to the UN. As bad as the US may be on occasion, it's still better than handing the keys over to the likes of China and Saudi Arabia.
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Lets hope that the Clandestine monitoring will not be discovered. After the election, we could hear about a reversal in the monitoring, to where it will be deemed as open.
Re:How dare you! (Score:4, Insightful)
That is an article of faith. However, it is baldly evident that it no longer is uncontrolled. The internet has been brought to heel, and will soon be locked down to the atomic level.
Quantum computing will come after that, and there will no longer be Too Many Secrets, Marty, because they will be able to crack any key-based encryption. This is a long game.
There will be encrypted comm, of course, using quantum-entangled computers, but WE will never see that. It will, by the mechanics of power, be reserved for the government and associated corporations to use. One law for me, and another for thee.
The end result will be a prison for us, with guarded, monitored, recorded internet services, and a closed secret world for our, let's just say it, masters. We've the social and governmental DNA for it already; we've already accepted secret wars and blacked-out war zones. We're okay with phone and car tracking. There's nothing to stop this.
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the day after quantum computing renders traditional crypto obsolete, you will see the rise of quantum crypto
it's an arms race. same as it ever was, same as it ever will be
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Tyranny exists because the weak and fearful crave it.
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What confuses me to a certain extent is that these countries that we don't want influencing our internet typically try to push their own version.
The countries that we don't want controlling our internet, are typically those who already do (US, UK, etc.)
Okay Let's Examine the Possible Scenario (Score:2)
Terry Kramer, the U.S. special envoy to the conference, said the US opposes proposals from some of the 'nondemocratic nations' that include tracking and monitoring content and user information, which 'makes it very easy for nations to monitor traffic.'"
This quote is so rife with arrogance that it makes me vomit, coming from a government that does nothing but blatantly spend money and spy on it's people.
Well, maybe you should read this proposal by China Mobile [ietf.org] to split up the internet via "DNS Extension." Aside from the obvious criticisms [domainincite.com] and assuming we just blindly said "yeah, sure, China, whatever you want" let me ask you this: Will the situation improve for US citizens? Will the situation get worse for Chinese citizens? I think you have to agree that the answers to those questions are no and yes. Whether or not the United States spies on its own citizens is nothing more than an ad hominem attack to
Re:How dare you! (Score:4, Informative)
Why is this marked as Troll, when the Congress of the United States passed a law, which the President then signed, that granted legal immunity to American telecom corporations for illegally conspiring with the NSA and other agencies to monitor and collect the communications of the entire nation? How exactly is that so very different from what is alleged that Huawei and ZTE are or might be doing?
The not so implicit point of the parent comment is that the United States would like to maintain its "right" to monitor and track and control and deny the ability to any other government that it perceives as hostile. Isn't that quite hypocritical of this government to consider other governments as hostile when it is repeatedly treating its own citizens as hostile with excessive secrecy, acts of Congress, Presidential orders, creation of whole new intelligence bureaucracies, legitimization of wiretapping, and more?
Pot & Kettle (Score:1)
So let me get this straight. The US is only against NONDEMOCRATIC countries that officially and openly spy on their citizens. If you give your citizens what appears to be a choice every four years, then it's OK to spy on them.
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So let me get this straight. The US is only against NONDEMOCRATIC countries that officially and openly spy on their citizens. If you give your citizens what appears to be a choice every four years, then it's OK to spy on them.
The US is democratic and still has institutionalised the use of torture, has indefnite detention based on "made up" charges, shits all over the law of the land. Despises its own constitution AND spies on its citizens. Oh yeah, all the american telecom companies that aid in that spying business, well they are intouchable, courtesy of the US government. Shall we talk about the end aroud the court system known as National Security Letters ?
My dear friend, the freedom you have in the US is a false kind of freedom. Pure Illusion. Go peacefully against the government, using the rights granted by your constitution and see what happens to you.
You're absolutely right. And still I prefer the US over China or Saudi Arabia or Russia. I don't know if the UN could handle this better.
yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)
yeah, because the US would never do that [wired.com].
Since the UN countries didn't invent or deploy it. (Score:1)
They can go suck eggs. Or create their own alternate internet.
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Re:Since the UN countries didn't invent or deploy (Score:5, Funny)
"the UN countries"?
Isn't that, like, almost every country? Including the US?
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Hence, following this thread to it's logical conclusion, the internet was invented and deployed by one of, or a combination of Taiwan, Kosovo, and the Vatican City?
Moral of the story? Never try and follow any argument on Slashdot to it's logical conclusion and cite that conclusion in future. People will look at you funny.
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They can go suck eggs. Or create their own alternate internet.
Seriously the fact that they might do this is one reason why you want a generally accepted governance. At the moment you remove piratebay from a DNS server and everyone is affected. If each company has its own DNS servers then you just remove it from one country and have to get court orders all over the place. Your email to sheila@hotgirls.com might get to one person if you are in the USA but someone entirely different in Europe if the web is fragmented.
Local Internets (Score:1)
Your email to sheila@hotgirls.com might get to one person if you are in the USA but someone entirely different in Europe if the web is fragmented.
It wouldn't be the end of the world. In the US it will go to sheila@hotgirls.com.us and in Italy to sheila@hotgirls.com.it (or sheila@hotgirls.com.eu if they can get their act together), with sheila@hotgirls.com being nothing more than a (local) shortcut that refers to whatever country your in. Kind of like leaving off the domainname on intranet.
But since none of the Sheilas will be female, it doesn't really matter.
IOIIITUSA (Score:5, Insightful)
What... sheer... motherfucking... hypocrisy...
IOIIITUSA : It's OK if it's the USA
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I love the arguement here. (Score:1)
Mr. Kettle, you are black. Sincerely,
Mr. Pot.
P.S. We need all you nations that are worried about dissent to worry about copyright infringement instead.
Fuck off (Score:5, Informative)
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So unlike the telecoms in the US! (Score:2, Funny)
Thank goodness those US telecoms stand up for their customers' constitutional rights! They'd never stand for unconstitutional surveillance on their networks!
then we are all moving to namecoin (Score:2)
Dear U.S, UN and the ITU.
We, the rest of the world, are tired of you screwing with us, so we are moving everything over to Bitcoin and Namecoin.
monitoring ip (Score:1)
I'd rather have America in control of the internet (Score:1)
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the government put Mehanna away for ... translating a book (a 2003 Saudi text, 39 Ways to Serve and Participate in Jihad, that was "intended to incite people to engage in violent jihad"); distributing a video showing the brutal treatment of dead U.S. military personnel in retaliation for a rape in Iraq; and giving a friend a film about jihadi fighters...
Sentenced to 17.5 years in prison for spreading information. Sorry for bursting your bubble, but it had to be done. The US of A you think about it doesn't exist anymore.
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Then google Brandon J. Raub.
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Hi.
Have you heard of Julian Assange?
Kim Dotcom?
Any of The Pirate Bay folks?
Any of the muslims who have just been extradited to the US despite breaking no UK law for exactly the reasons you cite?
Unfortunately, just because you haven't heard of such things in your little world, doesn't mean they don't happen.
Seriously, what's the alternative? (Score:1)
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Let's pretend for a moment that the US does relinquish Command and Control of the Internet (because honestly, for the most part "The Internet" is just the
The US did INVENT the internet (Score:2)
I'm speaking as a non-American, but it seems to me that it's the Americans' right to keep control of DNS, as it's theirs.
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The internet is under US control because the US invented it.
That's why cars are globally controlled by the Germans ...
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The internet is under US control because the US invented it. Geez. If other countries don't like the fact that the US controls DNS, they should invent their own internet
I guess the US will be inventing their own world wide web then?
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It's hypocrisy all the way down (Score:3)
"'makes it very easy for nations to monitor traffic"
This is already easy in the U.S. Just ask the carrier(s) to give you some closet (literally) space, and you're in business.
Sadly, we now live in a technologically enabled world. where if it's possible, it is considered both acceptable and dutiful to do so. Kinda like the earlier days of the Internet when courts started posting documets online. These were always poubic records, but the hassle of going to the court office and the gatekeepers there kept much of this out of easy view. There are a few sites out there that make a living exposing this public but obscure data. And sometimes, someone gets all wee-wee'd up that this 'got posted'.
Then again, our police are engaged in a massive expansion of surrveilance, just because it got affordable and relatively innocuous.
We are going to have to limit that, somehow.
Most of the rest of the world has little if any options for addressing such grievances. I'm not inclined to give them the pwoer to make policy worldwide. Bad enough they do it to their people.
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On the other hand, if Hauwei or ZTE are actually b
I have figured it out... (Score:2)
So go along with all the posts expressing suprise that the United States' Government would be on the side of privacy in a debate. I have found the way to manipulate politicians into protecting internet privacy. Just say China and Russia are against privacy... ARE YOU?
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Wow. Just wow.
the US is *not* on the side of privacy on this one, just on the side of not having to defy the inevitable UN mandate to build the back doors into everything, or get labelled somehow.
As if we care much what the UN does anyways, they are ineffective and dominated by the worst influences on the planet.
Yes, there are worse gummints than the US. And they run teh UN. Lulz. Until we stop paying the rent for the place.
Demand (Score:2)
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No.
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No, they can't.
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No, they can't.
That's why I wear a tinfoil jockstrap
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So when you bug Boeing jets and put backdoors into Microsoft Windows, it's all well and good and DEFENDING GLORIOUS FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY because it's your side doing it?
At least call it American hypocrisy ...