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GNOME 3 To Support a "Classic" Mode, of Sorts

timothy posted about 2 years ago | from the classic-coke dept.

GNOME 197

An anonymous reader writes "LWN.net is reporting that GNOME developer Matthias Clasen has announced that, with the upcoming demise of 'fallback mode,' the project will support a set of official GNOME Shell extensions to provide a more "classic" experience. 'And while we certainly hope that many users will find the new ways comfortable and refreshing after a short learning phase, we should not fault people who prefer the old way. After all, these features were a selling point of GNOME 2 for ten years!'"

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Good decission (5, Insightful)

saxa (792531) | about 2 years ago | (#42065761)

Lets see what classic will mean :)

Re:Good decission (3, Interesting)

erroneus (253617) | about 2 years ago | (#42065983)

Not good enough.

The fallback mode wasn't configurable enough.

They should just capitulate on this and bring in the people from the Mate project and let users have a complete choice. Go ahead and update Mate to the GNOME3 libraries and let there be two desktop environments within GNOME. Users will choose the mode that is more appropriate for their use.

Also, stop using GTK+ or fork it to be called something else. For god's sake, the problems I have with newer GiMP and older GNOME just piss me off.

Re:Good decission (4, Informative)

DrXym (126579) | about 2 years ago | (#42066213)

The fallback mode was just an if-all-else-fails mode. It wasn't meant to replace GNOME 2 or even be a place you'd want to work unless your graphics driver was hosed.

Anyway there is no reason for "classic" extensions to be so limited. GNOME Shell is like Firefox in that new functionality can be strapped onto it and appear seamless. Any extension could potentially change the look and feel of the shell in quite radical ways. That's all Mint are doing after all with MGSE.

Re:Good decission (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066365)

Here's the problem with extensions: too many changes between Gnome releases means that many extensions break from version to version necessitating extension writers having to maintain multiple versions to support multiple distros. Add the fact that the Gnome devs rarely communicate these changes until maybe right before, or just after a new release, and are notoriously indifferent to the breakage they cause, has led to developers turning away from writing extensions altogether. And let's not get into how they routinely fuck with people trying to create themes for Gnome3.

Re:Good decission (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066557)

Not applicable in this case, the extensions being proposed will be officially supported by the GNOME team so they work with each version upgrade. This isn't a third party project.

Re:Good decission (1)

DES (13846) | about 2 years ago | (#42066451)

The fallback mode was just an if-all-else-fails mode. It wasn't meant to replace GNOME 2 or even be a place you'd want to work unless your graphics driver was hosed.

Fallback mode is the only realistic option for remote desktop environments.

It is also the only way I can tolerate Gnome 3; the default shell is shiny but completely unusable. However, even in fallback mode the window manager is hosed and the control panel has been dumbed down to the point where you have to twiddle dconf for even the most basic settings like “focus follows mouse”.

Re:Good decission (2)

caseih (160668) | about 2 years ago | (#42066383)

What problems are these?

Gimp is GTK 2 still, and Gnome is GTK 3. There are no problems that I can see here. The library versions coexist without problems.

I do agree that the GTK+ 3 development process has some tremendous problems and I'm not quite sure I like the way things are going. But we'll see how it settles out. I've always liked the GTK+ apis, and the fact that it's straight C and so easily wrappable by different languages. Qt seems to be better placed right now, in terms of platform portability, ease of use, stability of the API, and completeness. GTK has been playing catch up to Qt for a while (CSS for styling, etc).

Re:Good decission (5, Insightful)

squiggleslash (241428) | about 2 years ago | (#42066523)

I'm sure the MATE people can update their code to use the version 3 libraries with or without GNOME's "official" help. That's pretty much how FOSS works.

I think this is a good move by GNOME. I have to say I've been bothered by the reports that the fallback mode is going to be removed, I'm not a fan of Unity or GNOME Shell, but at the same time I'd like my desktop to be modern, supported, and able to run modern software without it appearing to be be a hack.

This sounds like the start of the right approach to get a proper desktop back for GNOME users who want one.

More-over, it also provides the GNOME project with a way out. They've kind of painted themselves in to a corner with GNOME Shell. I'm finding it very hard to believe that there's a significant contingent of people out there who prefer it, or Unity, to a desktop. An officially supported set of "extensions" can, over time, turn into an official GNOME next generation desktop project, without having to admit that maybe GNOME Shell was not quite what was needed right now.

MATE! (1, Funny)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about 2 years ago | (#42066413)

http://mate-desktop.org/ [mate-desktop.org]

Gnome should have learned how to play chess. They are out of moves.

Frist! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065769)

Först Kommant

Whoa (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065775)

Somebody has had a flash. Of sorts.

Hell must be freezing over (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065781)

GNOME is paying attention to what their users say and are listening to what the users want?

Hell must be freezing over!

Re:Hell must be freezing over (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066003)

No, this is an attempt to undermine the work of the Linux Mint guys. See, current Gnome devs are control freaks obsessed with preventing anything they think damages their "brand". Theming and users configuring their desktops to their preferences is an anathema to them, and they are rightly concerned that the Mint guys are making a better, more useful Gnome3 than they are. It wouldn't surprise me if upcoming changes in Gnome3 and GTK3 just happen to bollocks Cinnamon, muffin and other Mint components.

Re:Hell must be freezing over (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066283)

What the fuck is up with all these food names? Stop trying to copy Apple you damn losers.

Re:Hell must be freezing over (1)

jareth-0205 (525594) | about 2 years ago | (#42066327)

Yeah! Wait.... what?

Re:Hell must be freezing over (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066305)

The "Linux Mint" guys haven't done much work. Most of the JavaScript extensions that make up Cinnamon aren't primarily developed by anyone associated with Linux Mint and Mate is basically Gnome 2 with a few minor patches.

Re:Hell must be freezing over (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066905)

GNOME is paying attention to what their users say and are listening to what the users want?

Hell must be freezing over!

Oh, they are listening. And they'll come up with some parody that the users don't want, and then say "see, you were wrong about preferring Gnome2 behavior".

Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065793)

Too little, too late. The project has already run off too many power users and influential people within the FOSS community. The top-down, change for the sake of change dictate has led many to question the project's leadership.

News Flash: They were faulting people who preferred the traditional way. Those who wanted a minimal and unobtrusive workspace were told to stop being stodgy luddites and get with the Metro/OSX times.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065821)

In all fairness, I don't think Metro had anything to do with Gnome3's direction, but about the backpedaling, yeah that's funny stuff.

Cinnamon/MATE envy? Must be maddening to see users leaving en masse to a WM that 'features' all the things Gnome2 had for almost a decade.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065873)

As the marketroids would say, Metro and OSX both "boldly threw off the old paradigm of desktop computing to embrace a synergistic experience 2.0".

Windows did make major changes to their UI because the old one was, well, old. People who use computers as more than consumer appliances weren't having problems, but that was not convincing enough for the marketroids and design majors.

GNOME did take the everybody else is doing it mentality.

People were told to get with the times and replace their simple menu of useful applications with a goofy launcher/search to open all their pointless "apps"

Sadly, most people see newness for the sake of newness as cool and exciting.

GNOME wanted to go smoke behind the bleachers with the rest of the cool kids instead of accomplish things in chess club with the rest of us nerds. Their descision, their loss.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (5, Insightful)

erroneus (253617) | about 2 years ago | (#42066011)

The industry has "matured." "New isn't better" any longer. Now we just want to use what we have, not "experience" it.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (1)

MurukeshM (1901690) | about 2 years ago | (#42066161)

Have you seen the new GDM lock screen? What is that, if not a blatant rip-off of the lock screen of 'that which was formerly known as Metro'? Back to Cinnamon + LightDM for me. I never much liked GDM and this stupid lock screen is enough to send me running to LightDM.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (5, Insightful)

digitalchinky (650880) | about 2 years ago | (#42065827)

Gimp and a bunch of other projects seem to be headed the same way - what is it with ripping out a decade of refined workflow for massive amounts of white space and fewer exposed configuration options? This trend for dumbed down interfaces has become disturbing.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065877)

Gimp and a bunch of other projects seem to be headed the same way

Hint: There's a lot of developers that do work on both projects. Now some of them have migrated to Libreoffice. Expect more UI carnage to come.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (4, Funny)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 years ago | (#42065901)

Gimp and a bunch of other projects seem to be headed the same way

Hint: There's a lot of developers that do work on both projects. Now some of them have migrated to Libreoffice. Expect more UI carnage to come.

Please no ... not the fucking ribbon

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (1)

erroneus (253617) | about 2 years ago | (#42066027)

Damned ribbon... It's not a ribbon. It's a tabbed toolbar interface.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about 2 years ago | (#42066469)

Damned ribbon... It's not a ribbon. It's a tabbed toolbar interface.

That's exactly what GP said, isn't it? Ribbon.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (1)

SirCowMan (1309199) | about 2 years ago | (#42066555)

I consider ribbon's as a subset of tabbed toolbar interfaces, which generally follow the Microsoft ribbon guidelines (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/cc872782.aspx).

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (1)

Gozzin (2125020) | about 2 years ago | (#42066661)

It's a ribbon...I know this is true cause I've seen a lot of ribbons!

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (-1, Troll)

couchslug (175151) | about 2 years ago | (#42066025)

Shoot all the artfuck "developers" in the face. They have become human obstacles.

Seriously, if any of you eye-candy fetishists read this, go write shitty interfaces for Windows apps instead. Better yet, suck a shotgun and thin the herd.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066207)

Let's just replace artfucks with actual UI experts. When a programmer designs their own UI... yikes. I've seen trainwrecks that are easier to navigate.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (1)

foobsr (693224) | about 2 years ago | (#42066031)

This trend for dumbed down interfaces has become disturbing.

There must be users who appreciate^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H need those, and that is disturbing indeed.

CC.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (2)

serviscope_minor (664417) | about 2 years ago | (#42066439)

what is it with ripping out a decade of refined workflow for massive amounts of white space and fewer exposed configuration options?

I'm glad I'm not the only person suddenly at a loss as to how to use the GIMP. All options missing is not the same as easy to use, especially if you often want to change the options, like brush sizes.

This trend for dumbed down interfaces has become disturbing.

Yep and combine that with unity, wayland, systemd and a few other misselany, and desktop Linux will resemble nothing from its unix roots and will be instead be a hacker unfriendly "shiny" system which will appeal to who?

It will never beat OSX at its own game, nor Windows.

The wonderful thing about Linux is that it's not like either of those two.

But some people seem determined to ruin it.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (1)

TangoMargarine (1617195) | about 2 years ago | (#42066493)

Because God knows GIMP is so easy to use these days...

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065887)

Yes. But luckily with FOSS you can do more with less. I think gnome devs still have more resources than at least one among lxde, razorqt, xfce, e17, cinnamon, mate. Those are projects that are surviving fine, so gnome can do the same.

Can I ask... (1)

xded (1046894) | about 2 years ago | (#42066009)

Too many power users ran off to what? What's the best alternative, KDE excluded, for power users that once liked GNOME?

Re:Can I ask... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066107)

XFCE. Shit just stays where you fucking put it.

4.8 is getting a little old. 4.10 is very nice though.

I really hope they never do a version 5, just increment 4 forever.

All GNOME and KDE had to do was not fuck with something that worked. They fucked with the thing that worked.

Re:Can I ask... (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about 2 years ago | (#42066497)

I like XFCE - but - well, this is a little embarrassing. See, I don't have much use for eye candy. 80% or more of eye candy is just waste, IMO. But, XFCE is just a little to plain. Barren. Stark. Ehhhh - I really love Enlightenment, but no one is actively developing it. So, it's Mate for me. I turn it down to minimal settings, and it has enough eye candy left over to keep me happy.

Re:Can I ask... (1)

aliquis (678370) | about 2 years ago | (#42066145)

Obvious alternative if you liked Gnome 2 is Mate.

Re:Can I ask... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066163)

Look at LMDE with their Debian-tracking distro and MATE and Cinnamon desktops. MATE is exactly like GNOME2 was, just that updated. Cinnamon is an excelent alternative to Gnome shell by the distro maintainers that is gaining a lot of traction, is well supported, and also aims to cope exactly with the situation you describe.

Re:Can I ask... (5, Interesting)

aaaaaaargh! (1150173) | about 2 years ago | (#42066195)

XFCE. I switched from Gnome this year and haven't regreted it. It's snappy and simply does what it is supposed to do.

Re:Can I ask... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066331)

Same. After having used gnome-shell for 1.5 years, i switched to XFCE. I feel i'm a lot more productive, for my GUI being very snappy and responsive (and why shouldn't it be), it doesn't break my work-flow with window animations that even seem to be a burden on the system. Yay

Re:Can I ask... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066851)

Thirded. XFCE is lightweight, familiar to anyone coming from gnome2 and gets the job done.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066063)

Too little, too late. The project has already run off too many power users and influential people within the FOSS community. The top-down, change for the sake of change dictate has led many to question the project's leadership.

This is something of a surprising comment; I wasn't aware "influential people" dictated the options of the FOSS community. You can continue to not use things because someone told you you wouldn't like it, but I'm not going to allow my subjective experiences be dictated by someone else.

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066355)

News Flash: They were faulting people who preferred the traditional way. Those who wanted a minimal and unobtrusive workspace were told to stop being stodgy luddites and get with the Metrosexual/OSX times.

FTFY

Re:Closing the barn door after the horse is gone (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066521)

Why are you lumping OS X with the Metro style? They are almost nothing alike. OS X is a very minimal and unobstrusive workspace with all the keyboard shortcuts you could want.

What?!? They are selling Gnome now?!?! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065809)

"a selling point of GNOME 2 for ten years"; pathetic....

Pfft (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065819)

"we should not fault people who prefer the old way"

Oooh, how generously big-hearted and inclusive of them!

Re:Pfft (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066289)

Yeah, particularly when users were voicing their complaints (not just rants, but actual calm, considered objections) in bug reports and forums like /. and were basically told they to go fuck themselves. They must think that users have no memory or can't use a search engine.

Re:Pfft (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066527)

The search engine only returns amazon store results now, anyway.

Comfortable (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065849)

This guy probably means "convenient" when he says "comfortable". It's one of those false friend things.
(Disclaimer: Native German speaker here, now living in the UK)

This isn't devs listening (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065851)

This is just another account of how amazingly full of shit the GNOME team (Red Hat, let's just call it with it real name) continues to be. On one hand they continue NACKing the problems with their environment people have been shouting into their ears from the last two years -at least-; while now on the other they tacitally ACK them but in the same vein they do everything: arrogantly, reluctantly, thinking only about [b]control[/b].

As clearly showed in [URL="https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/"]this eye-opening essay[/URL] (and the numerous links and comments that spawned in many levels deep), the GNOME team themselves have made clear both extensions and themes are detrimental to their goal of tight CONTROL over every aspect of your involvement with GNOME, whether you are a mere user, a theme or extension dev, a third app dev, or a distro dev.

So much for the argument that "Gnome shell sucks less because you can make it so by using extensions". People, they DON'T WANT THAT. They themselves say it loudly and clearly and without a trace of regret. They *won't* change what you expect them to change. Just read carefully the linked post above. They broke the extensions and themes on each release intentionally. Now they "tackle" this issue...

At this point what they are asking themselves is this:

"how do we attempt to save our project while NOT having to ackowledge the criticism, and NOT having to drop an inch of control??".

Answer: [B]We[/B] take control of the extensions, and [b]not[/b] third parties.

For them it is a good solution, they tackle many angles at once: tighten control, avoid change, pretend change, do something about public oppinion.

In the end the outcome will be decided by the sum of the personal choice each of us has to make between "do I stop, do I stand back against people that are against what this OS was always about, do I turn my back on them and take some weight on me" or "I need the short term gain of not distracting myself with ackowledging there is a problem here and reacting to it: that myself, as a user, as a contributor to this scene am not in these people plans". Do you keep pluging your ears and go "lalalalalala everything is awesome" like these people want you to do?.

You may call me delusional, I won't give a shit. I think many of the people that have been here from the beginning in the nineties, haven't (or haven't completely yet) forgot the struggles and years of effort on part of each member in this community to get to where we got a few years ago. The issue here is *money*. The issue here is *companies wanting to subvert Linux ecosystems for money*. Just take a look at what company employees the key GNOME devs are, for christ sake. To the younger, uninformed people: educate yourselves, don't take for granted what you have now, and yes, *fight* to conserve your power over it. If you are "just" a user, your power resides in your CHOICE, and in your OPPINION. If you are a dev, you also have the power of FORK, the power of NOT PLAYING THE GAME.

Re:This isn't devs listening (5, Insightful)

TuringTest (533084) | about 2 years ago | (#42065975)

Keeping tight control is a *good* think in user interface design strategy; it provides a more focused structure and simpler environment, which were their goals.

The mistake the Gnome developers made was calling the new desktop "Gnome 3". Had they presented it as an experimental new environment and named it "Project Harmony" or "Desktop Zen", or something like that, they would have stepped on less toes and met less resistance to the radical changes, and people would have seen it in better light.

Of course they would have had less audience, as distros wouldn't have adopted it so quickly. That trade-off was their choice, but I think "Linux is awesome! There are three good major desktops now!" was a better selling point than "They've updated Gnome, and it sucks".

Re:This isn't devs listening (2)

TuringTest (533084) | about 2 years ago | (#42066099)

Keeping tight control is a *good* think in user interface design

May I add, "as long as you have users that like your design and you keep listening to them to further tweak it".

Re:This isn't devs listening (2)

blade8086 (183911) | about 2 years ago | (#42066135)

He's not talking about UI design 'control' - he's talking about project control, and the fact that by-proxy, and by nature of being the primary desktop UI, what the gnome team (heavily sponsored by 'corporate linux') does, hugely impacts the entire linux ecosystem. and this group of people has proven themselves to be heavily unresponsive to complaints from the user community which popularize their product (aka a despot like situation)

But on the design side, I think you are wrong as well. Imho, the NeXT interface is the best UI design we have seen thus far for computers -
which allows for huge user flexibility, but within a controlled domain.

Dunno why everyone is trying to reinvent the MS active desktop with all of these 'widgets' and 'tiles'.

but the UI component is really secondary here.

Re:This isn't devs listening (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066261)

heavily sponsored by 'corporate linux'

C'mon, no need for euphemisms. We all know where most of decisions concerning the Gnome project are coming from. It's Red Hat. Specifically, it's Red Hat's Desktop Development Team.

Re:This isn't devs listening (1)

superzerg (1523387) | about 2 years ago | (#42066569)

The mistake the Gnome developers made was calling the new desktop "Gnome 3". Had they presented it as an experimental new environment and named it "Project Harmony" or "Desktop Zen", or something like that, they would have stepped on less toes and met less resistance to the radical changes, and people would have seen it in better light.

It is not just a project called gnome 3, they stopped devolloping gnome 2, made it incompatible with gnome 2 due to dupilcate filenames. Cause of the incompatibility with gnome 2, the biggest distibution made only gnome 3 available (Ubuntu, Fedora,...).

Re:This isn't devs listening (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066715)

The mistake the Gnome developers made was calling the new desktop "Gnome 3"

It gave me an idea for a kickstarter cause. Want to help me fund Rocky 7? Decided to ditch the boxing, for some reason or other. The film will follow Han Solo's adventures in the world of Latin dance. Already Empire Magazine is billing it as 2014's "what did I just watch?" movie!

Sure, people expecting to see the venerable Italian-American pugilist getting knocked around until at the end he actually throws a punch or two will be disappointed. In a couple a years time I'll release a director's cut, featuring spliced in scenes from prior Rocky films.

Re:This isn't devs listening (3, Insightful)

blind biker (1066130) | about 2 years ago | (#42066645)

The mistake the Gnome developers made was calling the new desktop "Gnome 3". Had they presented it as an experimental new environment and named it "Project Harmony" or "Desktop Zen", or something like that, they would have stepped on less toes and met less resistance to the radical changes, and people would have seen it in better light.

The Gnome devs went out of their way to make it difficult to impossible to have Gnome 2 and Gnome 3 co-exist, due to the library naming/incompatibilities. The way they manoeuvred, users were forced to use Gnome 3. Calling it "Project Harmony" or anything else wouldn't have made any difference, because they basically nuked Gnome 2.

Re:This isn't devs listening (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066029)

It's nice to see that copy-and-pasting forum posts is alive and well on ./

Re:This isn't devs listening (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066225)

Yeah, sorry about that. I had the post in my editor, and forgot to remove the bbcode before posting here. Nevertheless, it's the same post because it's my same stance in the two sites I've put it.

I see the usual downmodding is in effect. I just can hope as many of you as possible reach the linked blog and read the cold facts.

Captcha: standoff

Re:This isn't devs listening (1)

blade8086 (183911) | about 2 years ago | (#42066103)

All I can say is:

Agree.

www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#52

www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#52

www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#52

Re:This isn't devs listening (3, Insightful)

digitalaudiorock (1130835) | about 2 years ago | (#42066113)

OMFG!!...Some of the quotes etc in the essay from the GNOME folks are utterly beyond belief. I'm serious...I had no idea their attitudes had reached that state...and all the talk about "our brand"...WFT?? They've essentially become Microsoft FFS. After reading that I don't see how anyone who cares about Linux or open source would want anything other than to totally abandon, even boycott those folks...simply amazing.

MATE is better than this Classic Mode (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065863)

Maybe GNOME folks should indeed remove the classic mode and focus on whatever their goal is rather than trying to keep an unsupported classic mode, ending up with a Jekyll and Hide type of DE.

After all, the GNOME 2 fork MATE [mate-desktop.org] already provides an almost flawless GNOME 2 experience.

Re:MATE is better than this Classic Mode (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065889)

Answer is simple: no. They were all gung-ho for a new experience (yes I went there) while faulting all the old-timey users who were used to Gnome2. They were content with losing them until MATE/Cinnamon/whatever showed them there were more than a 'vocal few' who didn't like the new interface. Now they want all those users back.

Re:MATE is better than this Classic Mode (1)

erroneus (253617) | about 2 years ago | (#42066219)

I would say this is an accurate assessment. Their response should be to attempt to merge MATE in with the over-all GNOME project.

Re:MATE is better than this Classic Mode (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066279)

Cinnamon (gnome 3 libs) would be the one merged in, not mate (gnome 2 libs).

Re:MATE is better than this Classic Mode (2)

fahrbot-bot (874524) | about 2 years ago | (#42066771)

Maybe GNOME folks should indeed remove the classic mode and focus on whatever their goal is rather than trying to keep an unsupported classic mode, ending up with a Jekyll and Hide type of DE.

You mean like Windows 8 / Metro, or to a lesser extent, Unity? Seems everyone wants us to have a new and better "user experience". Funny how "new" and "better" don't always actually seem to go together. I don't recall reading - anywhere - about major UI productivity woes with GNOME2, Windows XP/7, Office (pre-ribbon) etc... You know, Classic Coke.

New improvements often don't improve (3, Interesting)

hessian (467078) | about 2 years ago | (#42065881)

Often, "new improvements" mean surface-level improvements that don't improve use and efficiency at all.

For example, I think Microsoft's Aero and related interfaces are neat-looking, but they don't help me achieve anything using the computer. They just make it a bit slicker.

If you turn on the classic Windows interface, you eliminate a fair amount of overhead and get back to the basics of a very functional interface.

The same seems true of Linux GUIs. I appreciate what they're doing in trying to keep up with Windows and Mac OS X and the glitzy new interfaces those have implemented.

However, how much of this actually adds to the basic interface? Does it increase efficiency of the the user? I'm not so sure.

I miss the days of installing a new Linux distro on a ten-year-old machine and finding out that it ran as fast as a new machine with Windows.

Re:New improvements often don't improve (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065955)

> miss the days of installing a new Linux distro on a ten-year-old machine and finding out that it ran as fast as a new machine with Windows

When did these days go away?

1) Don't run GNOME
2) Install only what you need (if that includes X and a manager, well so be it).

Nothing has changed.

Re:New improvements often don't improve (1)

couchslug (175151) | about 2 years ago | (#42066045)

"I miss the days of installing a new Linux distro on a ten-year-old machine and finding out that it ran as fast as a new machine with Windows."

Don't use bloated WMs. There is plenty of choice.

Absolutely correct (1)

udachny (2454394) | about 2 years ago | (#42066193)

So I have a client that I moved to GNU/Linux, to Fedora and OpenBSD servers and switched 3/4 of their user machines to Ubuntu because I provide software that is OS agnostic (well, actually it's Java, whatever).

They just opened another store, they want a similar setup. OK, the 11.04 is no longer supported, let's try 11.10. I work with their admin (it's all remote), he is unexperienced with Linux/Unix in general, but hey, they are saving money on licenses for the OS, antivirus and office software and hopefully this truly means fewer vectors of attack that stupid users can inflict on a machine. However 11.10 has Unity and no Gnome at all, it has to be installed separately. Fine, I tell him to install it, little did I know that he installed Gnome 3 (which installs by default).

Oh fuck, so he can't find 'System' option on the task bar and parts of it are scattered around, (some are in Applications, some are on the user icon, whatever), but some are missing, actually not there. In any case, we are looking at different distros right now, something that will be like Gnome 2 and something that promises STABILITY OF USER INTERFACE.

People have to be trained on a GNU/Linux distro as is at work environment, they don't even know what the fuck it is, what they are looking at. Having the most visible parts of it change doesn't help at all.

The software that I provide OTOH is stupidly simple from POV of a user, I don't do any generic menus, I don't provide any functions or change of settings that end users (non-admins) can modify, but the app looks the same and it's simple, no icons even. It's all text and if it say: 'inventory' it's inventory and it's always in the same place as it was before regardless of the functional update.

Summary wrong (5, Informative)

Chrisq (894406) | about 2 years ago | (#42065885)

This is not a "limited classic mode" but an agreement to support already existing extensions.From TFA:

As part of the planning for the DropOrFixFallbackMode feature[1], we've decided that we will compile a list of supported gnome-shell extensions. This will be a small list, focused on just bringing back some central 'classic' UX elements: classic alt tab, task bar, min/max buttons, main menu. To ensure that these extensions keep working, we will release them as a tarball, just like any other module. Giovanni already added an --enable-extensions=classic-mode configure option to the gnome-shell-extensions repository, which we will use for this work.

Also, they make it clear that this is not their preference:

Q: Why not just make gnome-shell itself more tweakable ?
A: We still believe that there should be a single, well-defined UX for GNOME 3, and extensions provide a great mechanism to allow tweaks without giving up on this vision. That being said, there are examples like the a11y menu[2] or search[3], where the shell will become more configurable in the future.

Gnome attempts to be relevant again (1)

GeekWithAKnife (2717871) | about 2 years ago | (#42065893)

For further details please see comment topic.

Too late - migrated to KDE and not going back! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065915)

After the Gnome 3 debacle, I am surely not going to migrate back after going through the painful transition from Gnome 2 to KDE. Because KDE works the way I want to work, I am keeping it as my desktop.

Most stupid regression EVER! (3, Interesting)

EasyTarget (43516) | about 2 years ago | (#42065917)

Having used the new desktop for a year+ now I'm quite into it; find it productive and fast, don't need the classic one back thanks.

BUT the latest builds have by far the most moronic UI regression I have ever seen.

Pop up dialogs in windows cannot be moved/resized (*).

If I do a print-preview in (say) Firefox the 'print dialog' appears; and cannot be moved out of the way so I can see the actual print preview itself.

If I want to print images this huge printer options screen, full of whitespace, can totally obscure the image I want to print! therefore negating the point of having a print preview system in the first place since I'm still printing 'blind'.

That is a specific example, many more occur in daily use when, for instance, a dialog appears in which you need to reference or enter details from the screen behind it, which it obscures, and prevents copy/paste from operating. Etc. Ad Nauseum.

An almost daily irritation. I know it is a change made for Tablet Users.. But they are irrelevant to be honest, Gnome is a desktop OS and will remain that way, tablet users have proper tablet OS's to use.

The Idiot Gnome weiners who argued for this, and implemented it, need to be expelled from the project; only by ridding the project of such incompetence will it be able to proceed.

(I think these are Modal dialogues, but I'm not a UI expert so apologies if terminology not quite right, I alos remember that Micro$oft dropped this in their UI after Windoze 3.5.. it is a shame Gnome chose to regress back to the late 80's.

Re:Most stupid regression EVER! (1)

magic maverick (2615475) | about 2 years ago | (#42066001)

I think I have some agreement with you. I've only been using Gnome 3 for maybe two months (after a few weeks of trying to like Unity, I don't like), but I can't find too much fault with it.

But one large problem is not being able to move dialogue boxes. (The lack of a proper task bar shits me as well, I've got a sort of one via an extension, and the inability to change the hot corner for the expose like thingy, I want it like on the SO's Mac, and a show desktop in the other top corner.)

Personally I think that all the idiots who say it is a tablet environment obviously used it. It makes large use of the mouse and just doesn't work as well in tablet mode. E.g. the stupid hot corner (bottom right) to activate the various things that would otherwise sit in the notification or status area -- is almost impossible to hit correctly with my pen when using the laptop in tablet mode.

Overall, Gnome 3 has a number of regressions from Gnome 2. I suspect that Gnome 2 with Compiz and fancy effects would be better than Gnome 3, but am not sure. However, I'm not throwing out Gnome 3 yet; maybe in a couple of months I'll try whatever KDE is available for Ubuntu 12.04).

Re:Most stupid regression EVER! (1)

magic maverick (2615475) | about 2 years ago | (#42066021)

... obviously haven't used it.
And I did preview the fucking thing first as well...

Re:Most stupid regression EVER! (2)

blade8086 (183911) | about 2 years ago | (#42066143)

But! But! But! Not being able to move popups makes it more like JQueryUI and therefore more AJAXY! and AJAXY == better.
Especially AJAX + Web2.0 + Cloud + Touchscreen. That is waaay cooler.

Now I'm going to the mall to buy some all over print tees and multicolored sneakers from a national chain store to show everyone how individualistic I am.

Looks like they finally run ot of drugs (1)

mar.kolya (2448710) | about 2 years ago | (#42065927)

Hopefully their designs will become more earthy now.

Seen the light? I don't think so. (4, Insightful)

jenningsthecat (1525947) | about 2 years ago | (#42065933)

FTA: "And while we certainly hope that many users will find the new ways comfortable and refreshing after a short learning phase, we should not fault people who prefer the old way."

Translation: "We've lost so many users and had so many complaints that we have to do something, but we're not willing to totally capitulate, so we'll toss them something that looks like a compromise and see if they swallow it."

FTA: "After all, these features were a selling point of GNOME 2 for ten years!"

Note the exclamation point. I'd expect that from someone who's been fighting all along to keep some of GNOME 2's legacy intact - I don't expect it, and don't trust it, from someone who was, and possibly still is, ready and willing to throw all of GNOME 2 under a bus.

I'm glad they're finally making some concessions to their users, but I'd be more convinced of their sincerity if they'd been more responsive to criticism earlier on, instead of covering their ears and digging in their heels for so long.

For the time being I'm just fine with XFCE, and regardless of GNOME 3's newfound tweakability, I don't think I'll be looking to move back to the GNOME fold any time soon.

Classic Experience (2)

wile_e8 (958263) | about 2 years ago | (#42065959)

I thought GNOME already had a "classic" experience extension - called MATE. (Or Cinnamon. YMMV)

The most baffling situation... (3, Insightful)

Junta (36770) | about 2 years ago | (#42065977)

The obvious question in terms of 'why not just let gnome-shell be tweakable answered with:
<quote>We still believe that there should be a single, well-defined UX for
GNOME 3, and extensions provide a great mechanism to allow tweaks
without giving up on this vision</quote>

I don't understand how this remotely makes sense. I'll preface this by commending the extensible of gnome shell, it allows changes that most other environments cannot offer. However, it's maddening that even the most trivial options mandate extensions to fiddle with. The two sides of the argument are pro-configurability and pro-single UX. What this solution offers is the worst of both worlds. For pro-configurability people, the configuration is not discoverable and its really hard sometimes to find what you want. On top of that, popular extensions break version to version. For pro-single UX people, extensions mean gnome can be anything. This is a single sentence that isn't internally consistent, which can be rephrased as "we don't want configurability because it can create too varied an experience, that's why we think its great that we provide a trivial mechanism that can be used to vary your experience all day long".

Re:The most baffling situation... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066337)

GNOME Shell extensions are a total mess. They FORCE you to extend using mostly-undocumented JavaScript APIs instead of the perfectly good C APIs that the rest of GNOME is built on. And then, every extension is run within the same thread as the window manager, so that tiny or unexpected latency in extensions can easily add up to blocking your whole UI (screen freeze). It's just crap. Much of the underlying GNOME infrastructure (GTK+, glib, xmllib2, etc) and many of the applications are really, really good. But some of the monolithic high-level apps (GNOME Shell, evolution, and nautilus, I'm looking at you) have serious design problems, poor performance, and let the show down for all the rest.

More bullshit. (0, Troll)

couchslug (175151) | about 2 years ago | (#42065991)

Translation:

"We want shiny tabletly eye candy bullshit because we'd rather be developing for Windows, but Windows already has a DE. We don't give a shit about anything but shiny change because change is progress and efficiency is shit and everyone should have to constantly re-learn how to interact with their PC and ergonomic efficiency be damned.

Selling point (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42065997)

> After all, these features were a selling point of GNOME 2 for ten years!'
What is this "selling" you speak of?

Backpedaling much? (3, Insightful)

partyguerrilla (1597357) | about 2 years ago | (#42065999)

I'm guessing the exodus of users scared the hell out of them. What's the point of a "superior" desktop experience that nobody will use [haiku-os.org] ?

Re:Backpedaling much? (1)

UltraZelda64 (2309504) | about 2 years ago | (#42066165)

That "'superior' desktop experience that nobody will use" you're referring to is still in alpha stage. In other words, it's not even ready yet for everyone to use, and the developers are not even trying to claim that it is. So what your point is, I don't know.

Also, it's funny that you pick on Haiku specifically, because of all the other, smaller alternative "hobby" operating systems out there, Haiku is actually by far the closest to actually being ready to use. As far as functionality and stability go, probably nothing at all compares. Having run it a couple alpha versions ago, it honestly feels more like a beta, so I think the developers are being incredibly cautious with attempting to get more users.

I know for a fact ReactOS is still incredibly buggy and unstable, to the point of still really being unusable for even the most basic day-to-day use. Luckily, the ReactOS developers also don't make any such claims, as their OS is also still labeled alpha.

Why bother? (1)

UltraZelda64 (2309504) | about 2 years ago | (#42066111)

It already exists... it's called Cinnamon. Or MATE, if you truly want the "original" environment.

The GNOME Project is just brimming with NIH. Even though... they did invent MATE originally, in the form of GNOME 3's predecessor that they tried to kill off. Pure irony.

GNOME Shell extensions are awesome (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066151)

I'm using GNOME 3.6 and it's beautiful, it's a joy to use provided that we install some extensions that turns it into something a little closer to the GNOME 2 environment. The criticisms against GNOME 3 are exaggerated. And I think GNOME Shell extensions are a killer application for GNOME, just as Firefox extensions have been for Firefox.

Who likes Gnome3 as-is? (0)

potpie (706881) | about 2 years ago | (#42066175)

I've been using Linux since I was in 6th grade: Mandrake 6.something, Suse 7.something, Slackware 10, Redhat 9, a bunch of smaller live-cd and media-centric distros, Ubuntu, and now Fedora 16. I've used KDE, Gnome 2, Blackbox, Fluxbox, Windowmaker, and flirted with FVWM and a couple others. I appreciate minimal aesthetic and functionality as much as any Linux nut, but this is why I like Gnome3.

No, it's not very customizable. But I find its setup intuitive and functional. No, it's not graphically minimal, but computers are far more powerful now than they were even five minutes ago... Graphic simplicity used to be very important, then it was preferable, but now--I feel--it's okay to have a little eye candy. (Take my words with a grain of salt, though. I have become a casual user over the years.)

Still, they should have kept up Gnome2 the way people knew and loved it.

Not going back.. (1)

rikxik (1337017) | about 2 years ago | (#42066181)

Fuck Gnome 3. I've discovered KDE 4.9 and after a long time, I'm interested in actually reading the release notes for 4.10 beta.

trying to keep an open mind (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066191)

but the comments(insults) by the gnome "developers"are just out of line
imho the project needs a leadership change as it seems there are a few different camps and at least one of them just still dosnt get it

posting ac because i can today

ya i iknow punctuation sucks for all the pedants out there
lmao captcha : exiles

Not Thankful (5, Insightful)

Culture20 (968837) | about 2 years ago | (#42066315)

I am not thankful for Matthias' condescension. A little more humility on his part in admitting Gnome 3 is bad design would be appropriate.

Re:Not Thankful (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066859)

What's not being communicated properly about the G3/Unity debacle, is this is a sensible way forward.

[Don't throw things! Don't laugh bitterly! Just for a second, and then I'll help you burn me. Hang on...]

This stuff is for people who use cellphones & ilk heavily, and a desktop as a secondary. We've got a lot of those people, and we're getting more. This addresses them, who are the greater future, not us.

That's all. That's what's going on here. Gnome's haughty mismanagement idiocy isn't actually new with 3, we had plenty with 2. And I'm not going to tell you I like the new stuff. I bloody hate it! But I did finally figure out WTF is going on with the change aside from the usual incompetence. So I'm passing that on.

Let the GNOME-3 devs do as they want... (1)

sensei moreh (868829) | about 2 years ago | (#42066347)

Let the Gnome devs do as they want with their extensions. If I want to run a GTK3-based desktop, I'll run Cinnamon.

Why I like gnome 3 (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066457)

I'm a developer, and I have tried just about every windows manager out there. Ultimately, gnome 3 remains my choice for a few reasons.

Gnome 3 works in the most pleasing way of all the WM's without any configuration. With minimal configuration it gets a lot better. KDE is awesome after intense and sustained configuration, which also goes for a lot of the more classic WM's. But, I don't want to spend very much time configuring at all, even though I have the ability to read manuals and get what I want. That's because what I want most is to focus on my work, not on my work tools. This is coming from someone who almost obsessively learns hotkeys and configures them in any window manager, the default behavior should still be coherent and reasonable.

Gnome 3 also has the most superior window switching I've seen, and it has a very responsive flow to starting new applications. Its alt-tabbing with the way it shows you windows in other work spaces, the way it arranges windows when you hit the windows key, the hidden ribbon bar, the sensible default hotkeys (most of them inherited from gnome 2 I recognize) and the way the window manager seems to just try to get out of the way most of the time...

I want minimal, pretty, and fast. So, yes I have some seriously powerful hardware to run this on, and maybe if I were on an older machine I would want a more efficient WM, but from a user interface perspective, Gnome 3 is exactly what I want in a window manager. Task switching and window arrangement is just vastly superior to the other WM's pre-configuration.

I just don't want the trouble of broken 3D drivers (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42066631)

... affecting my desktop. I don't even mind most of the stuff that GNOME 3 changed, except that where previously GPU driver issues affected mostly just video and gaming, it now affects *everything*. I have a RadeonHD and I have to pick to well-performing but often buggy propietary driver, or a poorly-performing and occasionally buggy OS driver.

Ah well (2)

juliohm (665784) | about 2 years ago | (#42066687)

I'm learning to love XFCE more and more everyday.

XFCE is very good (2)

gradinaruvasile (2438470) | about 2 years ago | (#42066877)

I use XFCE 4.10 + lightdm now (i used it in the past along with gnome 2). It is very good and has pretty much everything you need including network mounts. Its more stable than Gnome 2 ever was plus its not that heavy on dependencies and desktop services. Its also noticeably faster (on nvidia cards with the proprietary driver with core2duo/Athlon II level CPUs) than Gnome even on basic window drawing. Granted it doesnt have the Gnome's OOtB bazillion of services and integration, but i regard this as a plus. I did try Gnome 3 and Unity and wasnt pleased at all - Unity seems to be ok for touchscreens, but Gnome 3 doesnt seem to be - both are crap for desktop usage, either you have to learn entirely new skills for basic stuff, either you accomplish a previously-point-and-click operation with multiple maneuvers. Well done Gnome devs - you have accomplished the task of neuthering your own DE with unprecedented effectiveness - it was THE de-facto Linux DE, you probably thought you could pull a Microsoft/Vista/8 and still have the backing of most users? Well, seems didnt work like that not in this world (Linux/Open Source, that is). Would have been that hard to make changes gradually or do a fork, as previously mentioned? Or just tweak the hell out of Gnome 2 with the many hours of work that went into this crapfest...
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