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KDE's Aaron Seigo Bashes Ubuntu Phone

samzenpus posted about a year and a half ago | from the no-sir-I-don't-like-it dept.

KDE 92

sfcrazy writes "KDE's Plasma Active team leader Aaron Seigo has raised some concerns around Ubuntu Phone. He says 'We can start with the obvious clue: Unity currently does not use QML at all; Ubuntu Phone is pure QML. So, no, it is not the same code, it is not the sort of seamless cross-device technology bridge that they are purporting.' He then concludes, 'If you're a Free software developer, user and/or supporter and buying into these claims, I don't know how else to put it other than this: you're being duped. Consider what supporting those who employ such tactics means for Free software.'"

cancel ×

92 comments

Hrm (0)

bigtomrodney (993427) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929157)

Is this the same guy that tried to sell Kickoff launcher as being "One Click"?

Re:Hrm (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929233)

No, it's just Michael over at moronix who needs more clicks, so he misrepresents what someone says to get them. Slashdot gets on the bus for the same purpose. News at 11.

Mod Parent Up! (5, Informative)

Carewolf (581105) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929367)

There is almost no correlation between this story headline and the actual content Aaron wrote. Among other things Aaron wrote:

I want to make it crystal clear that I think Ubuntu Phone a great thing to see; more Free software mobile efforts, particularly ones using Qt/QML, warm my insides like a good bowl of soup on a cold winter's night

Re:Mod Parent Up! (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929939)

The question is, if all of you can see how obvious it is that the editors here are misleading people to sell a few ad clicks, why are you still visiting the site? I had considered making an account to post this but to be honest I'd really rather not bother. I'd rather not help the editors make a buck off another pointless flame-war that THEY FUCKING STARTED!

I'm not saying that any other site is any better, but Slashdot used to be one of my favorites. I think I'm now getting a glimpse of exactly what made Malda retire from his post. The flame-war monster that he created has spun out of even his control so he got out while the getting was good. With any luck this place will go the way of digg.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

roc97007 (608802) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930037)

> The question is, if all of you can see how obvious it is that the editors here are misleading people to sell a few ad clicks, why are you still visiting the site?

The same reason I sometimes read the mail in my spam folder. Because it's amusing.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42930269)

So the same reason the trolls visit the site, then. In other words you're part of the problem, but when someone points it out to you, you have no defense.

Sorry, but you have no right to complain about a problem you helped cause.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (0)

fbobraga (1612783) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930745)

Sorry, but you have no right to complain about a problem you helped cause.

Yes, he has! You are very wrong here...

Re:Mod Parent Up! (0)

Carewolf (581105) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930467)

The question is, if all of you can see how obvious it is that the editors here are misleading people to sell a few ad clicks, why are you still visiting the site? I had considered making an account to post this but to be honest I'd really rather not bother. I'd rather not help the editors make a buck off another pointless flame-war that THEY FUCKING STARTED!

I am not sure they did it entirely intentional. The story was just so flamy-delicious looking they forgot to check it was actually true.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

CAIMLAS (41445) | about a year and a half ago | (#42933215)

It's a sad thing to see, really. Slashdot was the machine through which many of us saw all the awesomeness of the early years of the "world wide web" and when we cut our teeth on technology - I'd say 1997 through 2003, roughly. So it's sad to see stuff like this, particularly when we remember how it used to be, and how there really isn't much left on the Internet that's similar to "how it used to be" to such a large degree as even slashdot.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

Zero__Kelvin (151819) | about a year and a half ago | (#42937451)

"The question is, if all of you can see how obvious it is that the editors here are misleading people to sell a few ad clicks, why are you still visiting the site?"

For one thing, it helps to know what kind of falsehoods the proletariat are buying into, and the actual truth, so that I know enough to counter it when I hear it.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42930227)

more Free software mobile efforts, particularly ones using Qt/QML, warm my insides like a good bowl of soup on a cold winter's night

It's this kind of faggotry that makes FOSStards so detestable: "Oh God, my beautiful Free Software! I would I could just eat it, poop it out, and smear the coded feces all over my body."

Re:Mod Parent Up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42935167)

Parent post (as is so often the case with such AC posts) has nothing relevant to add to the topic, but instead appears to reveal a bit too much information about their own fantasies and desires...

Pot and kettle (4, Insightful)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930795)

There is almost no correlation between this story headline and the actual content Aaron wrote. Among other things Aaron wrote:

I want to make it crystal clear that I think Ubuntu Phone a great thing to see; more Free software mobile efforts, particularly ones using Qt/QML, warm my insides like a good bowl of soup on a cold winter's night

So then the question becomes "Why is this false story being posted on slashdot?" Is it that the OP wants to slander KDE or Ubuntu or maybe slashdot itself? We all regularly complain about mainstream media and yellow journalism, so how come slashdot isn't doing something about this story?

Re:Pot and kettle (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42931113)

And if Slashdot (and DICE) won't do something about this story, why aren't its readers doing the open source thing and "forking" Slashdot to something better. Make a new website, just like Slashdot, except with responsible editors (or any editors, for that matter).

Re:Pot and kettle (2)

BrokenHalo (565198) | about a year and a half ago | (#42931361)

So then the question becomes "Why is this false story being posted on slashdot?"

Well, if you took the trouble to do such an unorthodox thing as reading the article, you might find out. Try it, it's only a few paragraphs.

Re:Pot and kettle (2)

Dcnjoe60 (682885) | about a year and a half ago | (#42931695)

So then the question becomes "Why is this false story being posted on slashdot?"

Well, if you took the trouble to do such an unorthodox thing as reading the article, you might find out. Try it, it's only a few paragraphs.

I did read it and that is why it begs the question. What is slashdot's motiviation in promoting this particular controversy?

Re:Mod Parent Up! (4, Insightful)

segedunum (883035) | about a year and a half ago | (#42931029)

Nevertheless, Aaron is pretty critical of Ubuntu Phone, and frankly, he has a point. Ubuntu is not using the common codebase they try and claim and their use of Qt and QML in their phone is pretty amusing. They've wasted large sums of time and money over the years going down many different software avenues over the years, Gnome being one (and worse, doing a great deal to hurt others in the process), only to decide years later that they really needed to create Unity and then they decide that the mast they have nailed their development colours to is not good enough for phone and mobile development.

It's the kind of thing that doesn't make me interested in any form of desktop or GUI open source development and hasn't for years. It's the same old bullshit. Pardon my French but Ubuntu either needs to either produce something worthwhile and useful that will move open source desktop and GUI usage forwards dramatically or they need to run out of Shuttleworth's cash and fuck off.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (2, Insightful)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about a year and a half ago | (#42931457)

"Pardon my French but Ubuntu either needs to either produce something worthwhile and useful that will move open source desktop and GUI usage forwards dramatically or they need to run out of Shuttleworth's cash and fuck off."

But traditionally, GUI is really not a "part" of Linux at all. It is an add-on. Thus X, and Gnome, and KDE. I don't mention Unity because I don't think it's worth mentioning... I view it as a niche attempt to corner the Linux interface market, which is likely doomed to fail.

I have been using Kubuntu -- the semi-official KDE Ubuntu -- for years. I like it, it's stable, and the interface with least surprise. It does what I want, when I want, and it doesn't try to "integrate" things that do not need to be, or should not be, integrated. (Like Twitter, or Facebook, or Google Search, or whatever... big FAIL on Apple's part to put things like that in the desktop interface. Twitter and Facebook are properly separate services, and will likely be replaced by something else in a few years. Google Search already has credible competitors.)

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

BrokenHalo (565198) | about a year and a half ago | (#42931481)

Nevertheless, Aaron is pretty critical of Ubuntu Phone, and frankly, he has a point.

So he does. It doesn't necessarily mean Ubuntu Phone is a total crock of shit, it's just that it's not really the platform they imply it is. (Now what would be really cool would be a Slackware phone...)

What struck me, however, on following the link at the bottom of the article pointing to release of the phone product on 21st Feb, the first thing I saw was that YouTube clip of Stallman talking about Ubuntu and spyware.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (3, Funny)

myowntrueself (607117) | about a year and a half ago | (#42933199)

Nevertheless, Aaron is pretty critical of Ubuntu Phone, and frankly, he has a point.

So he does. It doesn't necessarily mean Ubuntu Phone is a total crock of shit, it's just that it's not really the platform they imply it is. (Now what would be really cool would be a Slackware phone...)
 

Gentoo phone. That you compile ON the phone.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

Jane Q. Public (1010737) | about a year and a half ago | (#42931483)

I probably should not go on about this, but I think it needs to be said. "Social Networking" is in its infancy, AND some of the bigger services (I'm looking at you, Facebook and Google) are notorious privacy invaders. Trying to actually make them part of the desktop is grossly premature, or even inappropriate. For the people who want them (and maybe they want some service OTHER than the ones that are built-in), there are perfectly good apps. We do not need -- and in my case I do not want -- them to be "integrated".

To me, integrating Facebook or Twitter into your desktop is akin to bolting a payphone to your car.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

TractorBarry (788340) | about a year and a half ago | (#42934085)

More like akin to bolting a jackbooted Stasi thug directly onto your face.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (3, Informative)

TractorBarry (788340) | about a year and a half ago | (#42934077)

> It's the kind of thing that doesn't make me interested in any form of desktop or GUI open source development and hasn't for years. It's the same old bullshit

Wish I had mod points today I'd mod this right up ! +10 insightful.

The latest Gnome/Unity fiascos has put me completely off desktop Linux. There are so many areas of Linux that are in desperate need of improvement (pro audio apps, pro image manipulation apps, pro video apps) - not to mention all the usability bugs that never get fixed.

But what do the developers do ? Continually fuck around with the desktop metaphor, keep breaking things, continually "reinvent the wheel" (extremely badly), or needlessly trying to push new paradigms down our throats. "Hey we haven't rewritten subsystem X this week so let's throw out what we've got (thereby conveniently ignoring all the bugs) and let's write something entirely new (with all nwe bugs that will never be fixed) instead".

It's a huge, huge waste of time.

Not to mention the fact I'd got quite a number of people in my locaility to start using Ubuntu. When they pulled that Unity shit every single one of them was on my case complaining how the latest updates had broken their computer and "how can we get rid of this rubbish ?"

Desktop linux is a waste of time. Excellent server. Complete waste of time as a desktop. Constantly moving operational metaphors, not enough pro quality apps and no desire to fix bugs (let's make new buggy, shitty "shiny" instead)

There I've said it.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

freezin fat guy (713417) | about a year and a half ago | (#42936241)

The latest Gnome/Unity fiascos has put me completely off desktop Linux.

Quite the opposite here.

Indeed at first it did shake my confidence but it also made me look at the DE alternatives, which turn out to be many. There are even forks of Gnome 2, possible only because of open source. That flexibility has given me greater confidence.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (2)

iampiti (1059688) | about a year and a half ago | (#42936563)

At least with open source you can fork. The computer stores over here are plastered with Microsoft flyers trying to convince people that Windows 8 is great and very easy to use with keyboard and mouse (*groan*).
I feel sorry for the sales guys who have to convince people to buy computers with Windows 8.
It almost makes me want to give a hand to Reactos to try to make a open source Windows clone.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42941651)

Don't drag Gnome into Ubuntu's waste of a desktop. Gnome 3.0 is very usable (been using it for years), but I still can't fathom that Unity interface. Not liking Gnome's UI choices is far different than Gnome not being usable.

Not seeing the writing on the wall with Ubuntu's case was sheer blindness to the warning indicators. I mean, they still donate a pittance to the open source development community they benefit from, and are still attempting to rewrite anything with visual impact to a Unbuntu version. They still routinely mislead people into believing that Ubuntu is the driving force behind major linux projects that they have only managed to skin, and they are the first to throw problems over the fence blaming the projects they benefit from.

Ubuntu is the "marketing version" of Linux. They take Debian and add marketing, until it smells as sweet as honey, without the actual presence of bees, pollen, or honey. When that doesn't work, they tell you it's because the rest of the world got non-Ubuntu shit on their product.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

KugelKurt (908765) | about a year and a half ago | (#42934953)

Nevertheless, Aaron is pretty critical of Ubuntu Phone, and frankly, he has a point. Ubuntu is not using the common codebase they try and claim

Maybe I've looked at the wrong websites but I have yet to see a claim that both desktop Unity and phone Unity are written using the same codebase. I just saw the claim that one application's Qt codebase can be used on both systems and that's completely true. Canonical wrote various bits and pieces even quite some time ago to make sure that Qt applications utilize indicators, global menus, etc.
Canonical also rewrote at least their UbuntuOne desktop client in Qt a while ago. Canonical also forked MeeGo's Qt-based SSO framework and integrated that into Ubuntu for desktops and I'm 100% certain that Ubuntu phone just as regular Ubuntu will both use Maliit (another MeeGo leftover) as virtual keyboard. It just makes sense and which toolkit the actual shell is written is, is completely irrelevant.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (1)

KugelKurt (908765) | about a year and a half ago | (#42935015)

It's the kind of thing that doesn't make me interested in any form of desktop or GUI open source development and hasn't for years.

Obviously wrong because if you weren't interested, you'd not even read such stories, let alone comment on them.

Re:Mod Parent Up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42931965)

It's true that he seemed to take back some of his criticism at the end of the blog, but the tone of the blog was very harsh regardless. Why didn't he take back the other stuff *before* he posted it?

Probably because he really meant what he was saying!

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Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929389)

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Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929399)

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begin sequence (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929409)

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t whore jew nigger nigger ballsack cumdumpster cumdumpster homosexual fist cumdu
mpster cunt jew cock nigger nigger fist cumdumpster fist cunt nigger balls whore
  ballsack cock whore anus fist jew cock whore homosexual homosexual ballsack fag
got whore cock homosexual faggot

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begin sequence (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929415)

faggot faggot fist whore ballsack jew ballsack cumdumpster whore anus cumdumpste
r faggot balls homosexual homosexual cumdumpster faggot ballsack balls nigger an
us homosexual cunt balls homosexual ballsack jew cunt homosexual cunt anus faggo
t cumdumpster cumdumpster anus homosexual faggot nigger faggot nigger balls nigg
er nigger faggot cunt balls cock balls fist anus

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Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929425)

balls anus nigger nigger jew nigger faggot anus anus faggot nigger jew jew homos
exual nigger faggot balls cock cunt faggot fist ballsack jew faggot whore nigger
  fist cock faggot anus anus nigger nigger anus faggot homosexual homosexual anus
  jew homosexual cumdumpster cock cock cumdumpster faggot cumdumpster cunt cock w
hore fist

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begin sequence (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929441)

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begin sequence (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929459)

ballsack homosexual cock nigger whore cock anus faggot whore cock jew cumdumpste
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l anus faggot cumdumpster ballsack fist anus homosexual fist ballsack whore fagg
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er balls nigger cumdumpster jew nigger cock jew

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Something must be said... (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42930707)

C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

well it worked for google (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929197)

releasing a proprietary exploitation built on linux, i mean the fanbois eat it up even though you can't actually contribute to or even see developmental android code... ohh, yeah, so "open" but as long as it's someway vaguely linux related you get guaranteed sales from the neckbeard asperger kids.

Re:well it worked for google (4, Insightful)

dfghjk (711126) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929387)

The GPL doesn't ensure that you can "actually contribute to or even see developmental android code" and Google not offering that doesn't mean that their products are a "proprietary exploitation". The problem here is a nerd's sense of entitlement.

Re:well it worked for google (0)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929665)

The GPL doesn't ensure that you can "actually contribute to or even see developmental android code" and Google not offering that doesn't mean that their products are a "proprietary exploitation". The problem here is a nerd's sense of entitlement.

The problem is that Google sets expectations when they describe something as "open" [android.com] (as if that meant anything by itself, but still) and then breaks them when they do not utilize an open development process.

Re:well it worked for google (1)

BanHammor (2587175) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929727)

Read Cathedral vs Bazaar to understand just what exactly open means.

Re:well it worked for google (4, Insightful)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930029)

Read Cathedral vs Bazaar to understand just what exactly open means.

Uh, no. Not only have I read it, but he didn't invent the term open, nor for that matter open source. Nor did anyone else who claims to have done so, oddly enough.

Re:well it worked for google (2)

BanHammor (2587175) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930139)

Still, the "cathedral" model was used by GNU back in the day, and you'd probably be nuts not consider Emacs open.

Re:well it worked for google (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930213)

Still, the "cathedral" model was used by GNU back in the day, and you'd probably be nuts not consider Emacs open.

You will never ever catch me saying that GNU's Not Open. That's not how it expands anyway.

Re:well it worked for google (2)

BanHammor (2587175) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930299)

Then we can't blame Google for not being open - after all, they are doing the same thing GNU did, using the Cathedral model of development.

Re:well it worked for google (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930347)

Then we can't blame Google for not being open - after all, they are doing the same thing GNU did, using the Cathedral model of development.

Google is Open Source. That's a fact. But Google uses a closed development model. I don't blame Google for not being open, I blame Google for claiming to be more open than they are. If they call Android "Open Source" I cheer. If they call Android "Open" then I scowl, that doesn't mean anything.

Re:well it worked for google (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42931701)

Google is open source? Where can I download the code that calculates their search rankings?

Re:well it worked for google (2)

exomondo (1725132) | about a year and a half ago | (#42931949)

If they call Android "Open Source" I cheer.

Well that seems dubious, you can't really call 'Android' open source, only specific versions. I suppose you could say Android is open source based on the released versions - well assuming Android was open source until 3.0, then was not open source for a while, then became open source again - but i think it's best to do it version-specific since when a new version is announced it isn't open sourced until the first devices are shipping to protect OHA member exclusivity. I don't think there's anything wrong with their model - it's their product so they can do with it as they wish - but I absolutely agree with you on the 'open' argument, it's pretty disingenuous.

Re:well it worked for google (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year and a half ago | (#42934851)

If they call Android "Open Source" I cheer.

Well that seems dubious, you can't really call 'Android' open source, only specific versions.

OK, all versions but 3. And all three customers are really bent about it. Your point is taken, and I was a bit miffed about it at the time, but 4 really did come out shortly thereafter and the lack of Android 3 code really didn't impact much. Still, yes, your qualifier is valid.

Language of choice (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929207)

Man, if only there was a way to take code written for one display device and. what's a good word, "compile" it into a program that uses a different display device.

Re:Language of choice (1)

icebike (68054) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930571)

Or a shim to get from one API set to another API set.

Pretty heavy handed (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929215)

He has a point (actually two: the phone isn't using the same API, and Canonical marketers implied that it was) but he seems to think that that is disqualifying for users of free software. I don't think it is.

Point it out, but just add "KDE's approach is quite different. Here's what we're doing instead..." instead of talking about ethics and such.

Re:Pretty heavy handed (4, Insightful)

dfghjk (711126) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929435)

He said that the ethical implications of the deceit might be "disqualifying for users of free software", not the technical details themselves. Talking about "ethics and such" is certainly relevant in that context especially in a community that thinks it's so ethically-minded.

Re:Pretty heavy handed (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42930067)

Holding marketing drivel to a high ethical standard shows so much naiveté, I'm embarrassed for the guy.

Re:Pretty heavy handed (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929571)

KDE's approach would be to add neon blue drop shadows, massive animated gif icons that look like they were drawn by a three year old that was having an epileptic seizure, and about 50 gaudy animated desktop widgets. You also couldn't have icons on the phone's home screen without adding some shitty plugin that's written in JavaScript and breaks on absolutely every update.

Re:Pretty heavy handed (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42931015)

Imagine a Semantic Phone!!

KDE people must stop bashing others and listen to the huge amounts of complaints on their decisions. They force their view on others as much as any evil corporation. They should make features optional so the user can choose to install things like the Semantic Desktop or not if he doesn't have any use for it.

Re:Pretty heavy handed (1)

vizZzion (832507) | about a year and a half ago | (#42934069)

The Semantic Desktop *is* optional, both compile-time and runtime.

Re:Pretty heavy handed (3, Interesting)

node 3 (115640) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930065)

Something I've never quite understood from the "free/libre/open" software culture is the self-contradictory sentiment of, "you're not doing it our way, therefore you are wrong!" Isn't choice and variety and each person being able to take something and mold it to their wishes one of, if not the, primary points?

I wonder if decoupling morality from software the way it's so commonly tied together in the FSF/OSS movements would help? I don't mean entirely, just not that everything is a moral imperative. That's clearly not in the cards for the FSF any time soon, but ostensibly, that's one of the reasons the Open Source movement was started.

Personally, I find Ubuntu on phones to have great possibilities, and though it has a long way to go to prove itself as qualified and viable, I could see it surpassing Android in appeal to me. That it's a more honest offering of "Linux on your phone" than Android is. I haven't had a chance to flash it onto one of my Nexuses yet, but am looking forward to doing so sometime soon.

Honestly, seeing nerds rage against something on meta-reason grounds is often the first sign that it's going to be good!

Re:Pretty heavy handed (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42933519)

> he self-contradictory sentiment of, "you're not doing it our way, therefore you are wrong!"

no contradiction there:

1) Everyone can act however they want (the obvious things like murder, rape, assault and theft excluded)
2) One of the things you can do is express your opinion, be it positive or negative. This is called feedback, and it is not force
3) What (if anything) you then do with that feed is up to you

As long as 3 is true, there's no contradiction.

Re:Pretty heavy handed (1)

node 3 (115640) | about a year and a half ago | (#42938429)

"You can do whatever you want. No, not that." is a contradiction.

FS/OSS advocates pay lip service to choice, but far too many of them have large sets of choices which they tell others are wrong.

Fixed (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929239)

KDE's Aaron Seigo Bashes Ubuntu Marketers.

Fixed that for you.

Poor little Aaron... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929249)

In other news, after being picked last for the ump-teenth time in a row, Aaron Seigo was reportedly quoted as saying "I'm taking my toys home and telling mommy! You guys are mean!"

I Want A Phone As Secure As My Linux Box (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929279)

If it is just another spy phone, there is no reason to purchase one.

FUD (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929317)

Unity's 2D version is QML and is not the standard there up til very 'recently'; and has been used for the phone version.

Why making /. headline before even the people could check the phone version out.

Androidist's FUD ?
 

Re:FUD (4, Informative)

BanHammor (2587175) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929777)

Yes, it is QML, but it's long since discontinued.

Re:FUD (1)

KugelKurt (908765) | about a year and a half ago | (#42934031)

Ubuntu Phone is based on Qt5 and QML2. The deprecated Unity2D is based on Qt4 and QML1. Granted, the effort to port from QML1 to QML2 is minimal (which is why KDE Plasma components are first being rewritten in QML1 to prepare for the port to QML2) but they are not the same.

poppycock (5, Informative)

drankr (2796221) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929345)

Not, he's not bashing Ubuntu phone, mostly because such a thing does not exist - yet. He is criticizing Canonical's less than sincere approach to the rest of the world. That's all.

Re:poppycock (4, Interesting)

Knuckles (8964) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929851)

But the Ubuntu press release explicitly says that the code will be shared when the project "is completed", which it is obviously not. And getting upset about a marketing video seems like a waste of time. It's not new that a marketing video may not present the actual current development status, but the one that you want to sell down the road.

Sour grapes (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929369)

Sounds like he's got sour grapes that while they started earlier, Canonical will actually deliver a product people will use well before this guy.

Not a problem with Ubuntu Phone (5, Informative)

suy (1908306) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929473)

I doubt Aaron has many complaints with the technology used in Ubuntu Phone, because that's Qt Quick using QML, the same is used in Plasma. The thing is, Plasma was conceived as a very flexible way to create the primary user interface (that is, the visible thing that is not the applications). At that time, that was the "desktop shell" (Plasma Desktop), and nowadays is also a touch-device user interface and others (Plasma Active, Plasma Media Center, etc.).

The vision the KDE guys had was right, and with few resources have created a great framework. Instead, Canonical had to write Unity several times. The "normal" Unity I don't even remember in what's written (GTK+, Clutter, Nux... can't follow it), but I remember that there is the Qt-based Unity-2D (dead, AFAIK) and the new Ubuntu Phone version, which uses Qt again.

They could have saved tons of resources by choosing the technology and sticking a bit to it, helping to develop it. And now they claim they provide a seamless user experience across devices. Well, that could be true, but not using the same technologies, so the user experience is not going to be consistent with different bugs, different features, because the code bases are totally different.

Re:Not a problem with Ubuntu Phone (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929669)

Why do developers seem to pick technologies based on that they ARE NOT what the other guy uses, rather than what benefits they provide? This seems to be the hallmark of the GTK-ish community.

Re:Not a problem with Ubuntu Phone (2)

Noughmad (1044096) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929741)

But QML _is_ what the other guy is using. It is not, however, what Canonical is already using, which was Aaron's entire point. In this case, Canonical is definitely moving in the right direction. Now, if
  - Canonical starts using QML with the same components (same API) it for Unity apps
  - Ubuntu Phone and Plasma use the same QML components
free software on mobiles should have a bright future. Even as a third option, like on desktops, it should be great.

Re:Not a problem with Ubuntu Phone (1)

rdnetto (955205) | about a year and a half ago | (#42931247)

Why do developers seem to pick technologies based on that they ARE NOT what the other guy uses, rather than what benefits they provide? This seems to be the hallmark of the GTK-ish community.

The GTK community was created around that very notion. KDE pre-dated GTK, but used the Qt framework which at the time was published under the controversial QPL [snopes.com] (it wasn't until 2000 that Qt was published under the GPL). GTK arose partly as a response to this, and since KDE used C++, using C mitigated the risk of the two projects competing for developers.

The more two competing open source projects use the same technologies, the less distinct their identities. Whether this is a good thing or not depends on how much diversity you prefer.

Re:Not a problem with Ubuntu Phone (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42933527)

Gnome used C because there was and is a large group of people who hate C++ and think C a superior language to develop in. It wasn't anything to do with avoiding competition for developers.

Re:Not a problem with Ubuntu Phone (1)

rdnetto (955205) | about a year and a half ago | (#42936807)

Gnome used C because there was and is a large group of people who hate C++ and think C a superior language to develop in. It wasn't anything to do with avoiding competition for developers.

I never said that they made the decision for that reason; simply that that was the reason it happened. If KDE had used C, it's likely that many of the people drawn to Gnome during its formation would have been those who preferred C++.

Pearls from the post (5, Insightful)

suy (1908306) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929911)

Some pearls from the original conversation [google.com] . Alan Pope:

We're agile enough that we can migrate our desktop to QML if that's the decision that gets made. Unity has existed on four toolkits already, what's a fifth between friends ;)

Daniel Stone on wether Ubuntu Phone uses Wayland or not:

No idea, no-one from the project will respond even to direct questions. They've said in the past that they're writing their own window system, which is pretty tragicomic.

And the best one, the only thing that Mark Shuttleworth had to say:

As Kipling put it:

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools

The rest of the poem is pretty apt, too. My kingdom for a link.
Mark

I wish success to Ubuntu Phone, really, but it hurts me a little bit that it receives the same or more attention from the community than Plasma Active, when the later delivered the same or more (specially if you value open governance and source code from day 1), with way less resources.

Re:Pearls from the post (2)

Kjella (173770) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930053)

We're agile enough that we can migrate our desktop to QML if that's the decision that gets made. Unity has existed on four toolkits already, what's a fifth between friends ;)

I can't really make up my mind if this says the most about OSS or being "agile", but I think a facepalm is in order...

His actual post (5, Informative)

Noughmad (1044096) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929511)

Thanks (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42931517)

"We can start with the obvious clue: Unity currently does not use QML at all; Ubuntu Phone is pure QML. So, no, it is not the same code, it is not the sort of seamless cross-device technology bridge that they are purporting."

I hear what he's saying, but Ubuntu cross-platform seamless operation isn't really about what's going on underneath. Canonical know full well that we're entering into an age of dumbed-down users. It's not about smartphones, it's about dumbed down computers/PC's. One flavor of Linux had to dirty itself to go down this mucky highway. .and it was Ubuntu

Yes, things have changed. Stallman and his high horse are still back in the Unicorn land with HERD which is now leaving heaven to grace earth somewhat.. and we need him too. We need a pure reference in case the Earth does some day make a u-turn and we know how to get back to the origin

Then in the middle we have KDE, Gnome, Mint, Muffin, Cinnamon etc.

The true way for our society..as it is now.

But Ubuntu is more like the battleship - the one that has go in and work with these creatures that are pushing a centralized Borg-like server grid on us, with wire-tapped "smart" phones.

I still say Ubuntu will do a hell of a lot better across the board, including cross the range of devices, than any other offering out there including the jailed Linux that is Android..

Small steps guys and remember, Ubuntup on the phone won't even have a true Linux kernel, it's going to be an Android kernel.
KDE on the phone would still need the android kernel for now and they wouldn't be too happy about that you can be sure.

I've said this time and time again. Linux is not taking the lead anywhere. It's not pushing new types of interfaces, capability or user experience. We have our holier than thou / zen or source of things with GNU, but we're not getting our hands dirty with the new ways Linux on the warrantless-tracking mobile devices. Essentially we're in the matrix with no reliable way to dial out, unless you accept jailbroken iphones.. probably about the only good thing going in the mobile world really.

fu (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42929561)

Fuck Canonical

apt-get (5, Insightful)

duckgod (2664193) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929577)

IF Canonical does this right. That is a big IF. We will have the same advantages of the linux desktop on our phones. That is the ability to install any window manager you want. No one corporation will have the power to decide what my work environment will be like. So if you don't like it what Unity is, it is 5ish magic words to get something else installed. Please I beg you Canonical just let me type "sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop".

Re:apt-get (0)

uM0p ap!sdn (2446386) | about a year and a half ago | (#42929871)

su password

apt-get remove --purge ubuntu-forever

apt-get install debian

There, fixed that for you

Re:apt-get (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42930869)

There, fixed that for you

sudo su

apt-get remove --purge debian-fossil ubuntu-unity
apt-get install ubuntu-forever gnome-shell

You had a few typos there.

Re:apt-get (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42933569)

What the hell does "sudo su" do? You've obviously never used Ubuntu, because if you have, you'd know the right command to enter an interactive root shell is:

sudo -i

Re:apt-get (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42938419)

sudo su - works just fine, thanks. It also flows easier; typing left-to-right segments is more comfortable than the right-to-left required by "-i".

Re:apt-get (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42941087)

Is it really that obvious that I do not run Ubuntu on my primary workstation, we also use UNIX heavily in our education environment.

Perhaps you should man sudo sometime, or try the command first before making an anonymous fool of yourself, but I guess that wouldn't occurred to you with that flippant know it all attitude you're touting, seriously won't get you anywhere.

              Please note that sudo will normally only log the command it explicitly
              runs. If a user runs a command such as sudo su or sudo sh, subsequent
              commands run from that shell are not subject to sudo's security policy.
              The same is true for commands that offer shell escapes (including most
              editors). If I/O logging is enabled, subsequent commands will have
              their input and/or output logged, but there will not be traditional
              logs for those commands. Because of this, care must be taken when
              giving users access to commands via sudo to verify that the command
              does not inadvertently give the user an effective root shell. For more
              information, please see the PREVENTING SHELL ESCAPES section in
              sudoers(5).

Gnome-Shell is a much faster to use than Unity in my experience, the 3D transitions are chuggy on this machine and the laggy interface affects my flow. Additionally I have a 24" iMac to the left of my two Ubuntu monitors and running Synergy to give me access to the iMac by sharing my keyboard and mouse over the network. With the Unity menu, this was causing the menu to appear. And waiting for it to detect when I cursor up to the top corner was annoying when I adjusted this setting in the Unity UI options.

I do really appreciate the Alt menu search in Unity, would be great to see that in Gnome-shell, but other than that, Gnome-shell suits my productivity

Debian is great for servers. If you expect the latest developments to be available and become accustomed to these, then for a workstation environment I find the slow releases frustrating and I don't have time to build and debug something with the workload that I have. /end rant

Don't be a cock.

Re:apt-get (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42930245)

Few years ago Mark Shuttleworth has thought it better to rewrite GNOME using Qt toolkit.

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/08/07/14/1245204/shuttleworth-sees-possibility-for-a-qt-based-gnome

Re:apt-get (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42931087)

Kind of like Android?

Too slow anyway (1)

jones_supa (887896) | about a year and a half ago | (#42930921)

We can start with the obvious clue: Unity currently does not use QML at all; Ubuntu Phone is pure QML.

I knew they wouldn't put Unity in the phone. It's just too slow. Even on the PC it takes almost a second to open the Dash or Alt-Tab between applications.

Well ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42932283)

Tisk tisk. An Ubuntu Phone is now years too late.

Perhaps Canonical should focus their attention of Ubuntu Glasses or Ubuntu Watches ... ah ha ... Google has the Glasses and Apple has the Watches. What next ?

Ah Ha ! Ball Point Pen ! How can Canonical get Ubuntu into a 'Ball Point Pen' ? ! And do more than a 'Ball Point Pen' !

Oh Yeah ! This IS a REAL engineering project. Uh ... Cough ... Cough. ... If Canonical WONT or CAN"T do the nasty ... I know some one who ... has ! Wink ... wink .... nudge ... nudge. :-0

Ahem... KDE4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year and a half ago | (#42933229)

He let KDE4 exists and still dares to talk?!?

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