Tesla Planning an Electric Pickup Truck, Says Elon Musk 293
cartechboy writes "Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk says the company will make an electric pickup truck to compete with America's best-selling Ford F-Series pickups. Musk made the comment yesterday at the end of an interview at a tech conference in New York. Surrounded by questioners, Musk was asked if Tesla would ever make commercial fleet trucks (like for UPS or Fed Ex) and he responded that a consumer truck would be the company's best answer, because America's pickup truck sales numbers don't lie — that's what buyers want, and if Tesla wants to replace the most gasoline miles possible, that's what they should build. Musk said it will be about five years before the company builds its pickup however, giving it time to focus on another hurdle: breaking into the pickup market. Texas is where trucks rule, and Texas, as we know, is the Bermuda Triangle for Tesla." That also gives me five years to save up for one, and (just maybe) five years for Ford, et al to jump in, too.
Ford (Score:5, Informative)
and (just maybe) five years for Ford, et al to jump in, too.
Ford has already made an electric Ranger [wikipedia.org].
Re:Ford (Score:5, Funny)
Ford has already made an electric Ranger [wikipedia.org].
So can we refer to that as a Power Ranger?
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Maybe Unpowered Ranger. Ford has stop production of the Ranger line. Well, of all light trucks in the USA.
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Really? Why so? I thought those sold well - are truck owners so intent on driving a bigger truck than the neighbor?
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Re:Ford (Score:4, Informative)
Basically larger vehicle footprint = lower acceptable fuel economy. The Rangers and other smaller trucks could easily be redesigned to meet the new standards, but they don't sell in large enough volumes to warrant the R&D expense.
Funny enough, these midsize trucks sell very well outside of the US. This is why Ford still makes a Ranger for those markets. In the US, you have Toyota Tacomas, Nissan Frontiers, Honda Ridgeline, and maybe next year the Chevy/GM Colorado/Canyon will be brought back.
Re:Ford (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, what I see more than anything are short-beds with a full 4-door cab, instead of the extended cabs with small suicide doors that were popular for many years (one of which I own). The 4-door cab/short bed is a good compromise between hauling capacity and passenger comfort, and without the parking headaches of a full 8' bed.
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Ford stopped sale of all light trucks in the USA for CAFE reasons, so what reason did they give for cutting the EV that wouldn't be negatively affected by CAFE?
They may say it was for CAFE reasons but the reality is that it costs them about the same to build a Ranger as it does the F series, but they can charge a damn lot more for the F series. In the end, it's simple economics. The don't sell light trucks in the US because they are trying to maximize profits.
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That's not what happened, because now there are no trucks which do precisely what the Ranger did, which is to say be a light truck with room for fat people, even if they are tall. So now you need a mid-sized (half-ton) truck to serve that purpose.
The good news is that the mileage on the half-ton trucks is getting better...
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Squandered Research (Score:5, Informative)
Like GM, Ford also squandered its early technology in the EV area.
Ford Ranger EV, 1,500 produced, model years 1998–2002. [wikipedia.org]
GM EV1, 1117 produced, model years 1996–1999. [wikipedia.org] They also had the small truck S-10 EV variant.
Toyota RAV4 EV was produced from 1997–2003, and is now back in production with Tesla. [wikipedia.org]
Is anyone surprised that a Japanese company had longer foresight than the American ones? Thank you Wall Street.
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No... these electric vehicles were destroyed because they were awful. They were slow as hell, and/or had crap range. And they took a half day or so to recharge.
Tesla has succeeded because they have good/ok performance, and ok range. The charging time and availability is still an issue, but that's something the buyers can deal with.
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About a year before the deadline, it was pretty clear GM was the only company with a viable ZEV. They stood to make $billion
market (Score:3, Funny)
Yes! Gotta capture that redneck high-tech environmentally-friendly market.
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or the red-neck-can't-afford-the-increasing-price-of-gas market.
Re:market (Score:4, Insightful)
That said, pickup truck != redneck.
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Re:market (Score:4, Insightful)
And, if there is one thing electric motors do very, very, very, well, it is torque. Especially if starting a heavy load from a dead stop, the comparison is hardly fair.
It probably doesn't hurt that (particularly among vocational users of pickups), more than a few of them are called upon to deliver a fair amount of cargo, than sit there, potentially charging, while the occupants do construction things or such with the cargo.
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It probably doesn't hurt that (particularly among vocational users of pickups), more than a few of them are called upon to deliver a fair amount of cargo, than sit there, potentially charging, while the occupants do construction things or such with the cargo.
That is going to depend on whether or not the job site has a high amp charging station. One of the problems plaguing current EVs is that multiple partial charges shorten battery life. So, unless your EV truck is close to needing a full charge and you actually have the equipment and/or time to give it a full charge, charging it at the worksite could very well be reducing the uselife of the truck.
Re:market (Score:4, Insightful)
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(Also, it's polite of you to ignore the number of 'haha, we'd call it white collar if there were a salary or benefits; because it happens inside an office park or equivalent' shit jobs that you can do in our 'post-industrial service economy' and
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Re:market (Score:5, Insightful)
I can see this selling to rednecks. Even they are going solar as opposed to having to deal with the grid.
A Tesla truck has a lot of nice advantages that would be useful, especially for rednecks:
1: Max torque at 0 RPM. This can be extremely handy.
2: No fuel needed, which is a good thing as there is a growing off-grid mentality. Even if the truck trickle charges on a 120VAC, 20A connection via a set of solar panels, it still will be useful. With a larger solar or wind array, a 440VAC charger can be used. Of course, with a redneck, they just sling a generator in the back if worried about range.
3: There is also a very useful feature of an electric pickup truck. Stick an inverter on the batteries, and you have a very large battery for running electric equipment and no obnoxious generator noise.
4: There are times when one idles a pickup truck due to needing heat or A/C. Idling an electric car takes up 0 fuel other than what is used for accessories.
5: Less noise and smell... easier on animals.
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6. Place a generator in the bed, and its almost as good as a real truck!
Actually, I would place a small diesel generator under the hood and forgo the batteries. An F150 (assuming it would be about that size) has enough space in the current engine compartment for a small generator and electric motor or you could use a motor per wheel design.
Basically, you would operate like a diesel locomotive, but on a smaller scale, with an alternator powering some type of traction motor. Size keeps this from working on cars, but a full size truck should work quite readily.
Not totally emmissio
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Of course, with a redneck, they just sling a generator in the back if worried about range.
This is actually a good point -- an electric pickup could operate like a Volt, without the Volt's requirement to always carry around a weighty gasoline engine even on trips where you don't actually need it.
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I wonder why this isn't an option for the Tesla sedan. Put a gas generator out on a trailer,
Because people who want to drive a sedan don't want to pull a trailer. But for a pickup it's a complete non-issue because even if you're using the bed, you can still put a generator on one of those hitch-mount cargo platforms.
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I can see this selling to rednecks. Even they are going solar as opposed to having to deal with the grid.
A Tesla truck has a lot of nice advantages that would be useful, especially for rednecks:
1: Max torque at 0 RPM. This can be extremely handy.
2: No fuel needed, which is a good thing as there is a growing off-grid mentality. Even if the truck trickle charges on a 120VAC, 20A connection via a set of solar panels, it still will be useful. With a larger solar or wind array, a 440VAC charger can be used. Of course, with a redneck, they just sling a generator in the back if worried about range.
3: There is also a very useful feature of an electric pickup truck. Stick an inverter on the batteries, and you have a very large battery for running electric equipment and no obnoxious generator noise.
4: There are times when one idles a pickup truck due to needing heat or A/C. Idling an electric car takes up 0 fuel other than what is used for accessories.
5: Less noise and smell... easier on animals.
I'll give you point 1, although all of that torque, if there is a heavy load comes at the price of really draining the batteries, quite quickly.
Point 2 isn't feasible. unless some new undiscovered technology is found, all EVs suffer from reduced battery life the more the batteries are recharged. To get maximum battery life, you need recharge them when they are almost drained and bring them to a full charge. You probably aren't going to do this with a solar trickle charger and if you are going to haul aroun
Re:market (Score:4, Informative)
This is a myth. Please stop presenting it as fact.
Indeed, what you describe is the very worst way in which you can treat any rechargeable battery.
Re:market (Score:5, Informative)
Tesla, itslef states that battery life is dependent on the number of charge/discharge cycles and reccommends against frequent charging when the battery is relatively "full."
Citation please, because the Model S Owner's Manual [teslamotors.com] says the exact opposite:
Maybe the confusing is with the MAX charging option. As part of its battery management, Tesla intentionally does not charge to 100% unless you explicitly request it on the charging menu. People on the forums are still getting over 200 miles on the standard charge. With the MAX charge they're getting over 250 miles and the common practice is to use MAX for road trips. As long as you are using the standard charge settings, you can plug it in all the time and not worry about it killing the battery.
The main issue with an electric pickup... (Score:5, Insightful)
...is towing capacity. The tremendous torque would make it no problem for power, but range is a huge issue. Buzzing around town light, no problem. But the traditional use of a full size pickup to haul boats, toy haulers, travel trailers and 5th wheels long distance would probably garner almost nonexistant range due to the wind drag and weight. It's hard enough to make that equation work with diesel and gas - I take a significant hit when hooking up the toy hauler trailer.
So you would have a choice of a gas vehicle that will do all those things, or an electric vehicle that is probably only good for short hauls or not towing, and then needing still another vehicle to do towing. A hybrid is a better case for that use, as long as the power is there when you need it.
For all those people that drive them only for a status symbol but don't actually make use of them, then that might be a good market for them.
I use my 7.3L turbodiesel about once a month to pull heavy things like god intended it to, and the rest of the time I'm in my 30MPG car.
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For all those people that drive them only for a status symbol but don't actually make use of them, then that might be a good market for them.
A surprisingly large fraction of pickup owners never put anything in the bed of their pickup. Despite this, the Ford Bronco/Chevy Blazer class of vehicle, essentially a pickup with a built-in bed shell, was discontinued years ago in favor of much lighter SUVs built on car-type platforms. (I still own a Ford Bronco. It's basically an 4WD F-250 with a shorter wheelbase. Good for towing a horse trailer. 12 MPG when not towing, so not good for much else.)
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That's a lot less true today then ten years ago.
The current fashion accessory car is a Prius.
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Depends on where you are. Priuses (Priii?) are everywhere in urban environments, but last time I visited texas oil country, every last car in a parking lot at lunch one day was a full size pickup.
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Same even in the Austin suburbs. King Ranch edition F-150 crew cabs are very common as a daily driver.
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This is also true in backwater parts of Canada. Apparently they get bonus points for having the truck jacked so high that the bumper is inline with the windshield of a car, and two points for belching black smoke.
I think it's likely true everywhere between Vancouver and Toronto.
Trucks (which includes minivans and SUVs, apparently, not sure who decided on that...) outsell cars 3 to 1 out here in the boondocks. YEEHAW!
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Good. Another reason for you Canadians to invade and annex Alaska. We have the same kind of cars and even drive on the same side of the road.
Go Canada!
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Are you telling people buy cars as status symbols? I can't believe it! The only thing more shocking about your statement is that you think it's limited to 1 social group and 1 type of music. Next time I drive by a Prius blaring Mumford and Sons I'll tell them to go get a pickup like God intended!
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(I still own a Ford Bronco. It's basically an 4WD F-250 with a shorter wheelbase. Good for towing a horse trailer. 12 MPG when not towing, so not good for much else.)
My 1992 F250 7.3 with a turbo kit gets 15+ MPG on the freeway with 35" mud tires... And it's you're Bronco's big daddy. Down to the Dana IFS.
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But a hybrid system that could tow your horses under Battery + Fuel and then coast on battery the rest of the week would be just perfect for your use. Of course, the thing will cost $45,000 instead of your completely depreciated beater truck. That buys a lot of fuel, even at $4+ per gallon....
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The VAST majority of 1/2 ton trucks are sold to people who only use them to drive around town. They might get used to haul a few plants, a couple pieces of landscaping lumber, or a couple bags of mulch every few months. Nothing more than that.
Around here, they might get used to pull a boat trailer from the house, 20 or 30 miles (at most) to the boat ramp. Usually a couple times a year... I'm not seeing the problem with using the type of system Tesla has been using for this.
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God didn't build your Powerstroke...
Not everyone who wants a pickup wants to use it to tow a boat or RV. I have had a pickup that only rarely towed things and it wasn't for a status symbol. I used it to haul my Mtn Bike around, or my Skis, or to sleep under the canopy... People use them to haul dogs, tools, parts, lumber, appliances, and to help their friends move.
People tow with big trucks. An F-150 is not a big tow rig... It's a half ton that might do ok towing your speed boat down to the lake but my
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Even an F-150 is overkill for that kind of thing; the Ranger would have been good enough.
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Even an F-150 is overkill for that kind of thing; the Ranger would have been good enough.
Or a Subaru
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In my observations, pickup owners who actually tow or use their truck for anything other than daily driving seem to be a corner case. Though to be fair, people who actually use them more often than "moving, or helping friends move" tend to use them a lot. Those people should probably stick to diesel. The other 99% should be fine with electric.
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A hybrid pickup with power takeoff could be an ideal jobsite vehicle, able to power compressors, welding equipment, pumps, tools and other accessories without carrying an expensive genset.
An EV mini-pickup could do passably, but would be worthless for towing and there's no current (pun of course intended) way around that.
Re:The main issue with an electric pickup... (Score:5, Funny)
Trucks in Texas (Score:5, Insightful)
I think range will be one of the bigger issues in Texas. Many truck owners put on a lot of miles, especially out in rural areas. You don't generally have the option to recharge inplaces like Vernon, TX, Post, TX or Detroit, TX. And I don't see it as likely in the near future. And these will be particularly tough to sell to anyone who uses them for hunting and such activities, since the destinations are frequently remote.
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There's a lot of wind energy in Texas looking for something to use it.
Electric trucks would work well with swap out battery systems. One size fits all.
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They are the status-seeking morons who drive 100 miles a day towing air and wouldn't dare drive anything else.
Well, great, they can fill that empty bed with two tons of batteries, and have enough range to make it all the way to work and back.
Convince the Truck Buyers (Score:4, Insightful)
Nissan and Honda have tried to break into the truck market for years but the market is not the same as the car market. Truck buyers are hard to sway away from what they know, love and trust. Ford lovers don't buy Dodge and vice versa.
With electric engines torque won't be a problem but will reliability and durability be issues?
If Tesla succeeds at making a durable truck that gets at least 300 - 400 miles with a decent load capacity, a price tag to compete and more power, I can see some changing their preferred brand.
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reliability and durability should be higher with electric. Fewer moving parts. For what it's worth, Nissan and Toyota own the mid-size truck market.
If you treat the engine as a single unit in a vehicle, how many more moving parts are there in a standard vehicle? Both have suspensions and steering boxes and A/C compressors, etc. Yes, the engine has more moving parts internally, but really, for modern cars, that reliability is not an issue.
As for Nissan and Toyota owning the mid size truck market, well no shit! The others abandoned the market a long time ago.
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Disagree. Honda tried to make a truck for the antiquing market... But Toyota did mighty fine in the mid-size pickup market and they're doing great with the Tundra market... Around here (Alberta), the Tundra sems to be the pickup for the successful redneck vs. the Ford/Dodge/Chevy. I predict Nissan will do great now that it has licensed the Cummins for 2015 (and Dodge is going Italian diesel)...
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Nissan make excellent mini-trucks, but truck buyers tend to buy American brands.
EVs will be useless for many pickup roles such as trailer towing, service trucks, wreckers, and so forth.
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a price tag to compete
This is Tesla we're talking about, their price will be competitive with other ultra high end luxury trucks if there are any.
2014 Chevy Silverado "High Country", MSRP $44,000 (from Chevy's web site). ...
That might even be reasonable to get a comparable price point from a Tesla truck
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will be competitive with other ultra high end luxury trucks if there are any.
There are. For one example, Cadillac makes a pickup. (Well, some may argue that that's only "high end", not "ultra high end".)
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First fellow smart enough to build trucks like Diesel-Electric trains will have that market sewn up in a flash.
I've long been mystified why no one sells these. Pure electric for short trips, but the range/refuel advantages of diesel where needed (and simpler than the "parallel hybrid" cars you see, as the diesel engine is only a generator).
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One problem in the boonies (where this sort of thing really makes sense) is repair. Every small town in the US has a shop that can repair the vast majority of ICE powered vehicles. For some time, repair of electrics is going to be the province of dealers and perhaps larger shops. It's primarily the reason that I wouldn't get an hybrid just yet - my local mechanic won't touch them. Not enough volume to make it worthwhile to buy the needed tools and to send his mechanics to school.
Chicken and egg for a wh
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For some time, repair of electrics is going to be the province of dealers and perhaps larger shops
OTOH, one of the (purported) advantages of an electric car is that (outside of replacing tires, and, after 8-12 years, the battery) there shouldn't be much in it that needs repair.
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One problem in the boonies (where this sort of thing really makes sense) is repair. Every small town in the US has a shop that can repair the vast majority of ICE powered vehicles. For some time, repair of electrics is going to be the province of dealers and perhaps larger shops. It's primarily the reason that I wouldn't get an hybrid just yet - my local mechanic won't touch them. Not enough volume to make it worthwhile to buy the needed tools and to send his mechanics to school.
Chicken and egg for a while longer.
I can easily see electricians muscling into this market. Maybe they should be partnering with auto shops. Auto shops already subcontract out for certain things, like body work or paint. Adding another subcontractor wouldn't be that earth-shattering.
Hard market to break into (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hard market to break into (Score:5, Interesting)
A large factor in the derth of small pickups is the chicken tax [wikipedia.org], the stupidest protectionist law still on the books.
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Small pickups are light trucks, but light trucks [wikipedia.org] are not limited to small pickups. In other words, if the tariff was "a large factor," one would expect to see correlation in vans, minivans, SUVs, and other pickup truck sales.
Re:Hard market to break into (Score:4, Interesting)
So the tax has been in place for 48 years but only recently caused manufacturers to drop these product lines....?
That doesn't actually make sense. Here is something that does;
Light trucks are now tallied as cars in the fleet average for the purposes of CAFE fuel economy regulation. Manufacturers can't make historical quantities of these vehicles because they hurt they average too much, so they've reduced production. Naturally, prices climb due to lack of supply.
Light trunks are low margin products for budget conscience buyers, so as prices climb buyers vanish, some heading to used car lots. Manufacturers can see [wardsauto.com] the writing on the wall for light trunks and they're pulling out.
"Because of the new CAFE guidelines, the most fuel-efficient segment for pickup trucks, the small ones, aren’t going to be available in the U.S. market."
— John Krafcik, president and chief executive officer of Hyundai Motor America
Sure, I'd Buy One (Score:5, Funny)
.. Presuming it has at least a 1500 lb weight rating, can tow 30,000 lbs, all while maintaining a range of 250+ miles. Oh, and I'll need to be able to go from 0% - 100% charge in less than 30 minutes (preferably less than 5).
In rural Missouri.
Re:Sure, I'd Buy One (Score:4, Insightful)
I have an idea (Score:2)
Might an electric pickup be too heavy? (Score:2)
The Tesla Model S weighs more an 1000 pounds more than similar gas powered vehicles. Pickups (well, the ones that are actually used for work) are often driven on dirt. Even if it just an unfinished driveway at a work site rather than a field, it can still be muddy. The heavier the vehicle on a given set of tires, the more you sink and are likely to get stuck. You get work around this with bigger tires or more tires but that increases costs and reduces efficiency. Reducing efficiency means you carry ev
Come on. Make a 40K sedan first. (Score:2)
Enough pie in the sky and train in the tube already.
Haul your tail in and make and deliver a decent 40K Tesla sedan.
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What's wrong with this guy. He keeps launching and suggesting new ideas every other week, without actually delivering something most of his fans are begging for.
Enough pie in the sky and train in the tube already.
Haul your tail in and make and deliver a decent 40K Tesla sedan.
From TFA:
It'll be a while, though. In the meantime, Tesla has a Model X crossover to launch and a smaller, more affordable sedan to develop--so don't expect to see a pickup for another five years or so.
And for what it's worth, he's clearly stated he won't be involved with the HyperLoop because he's too busy with Tesla and Space X. And what's so terrible about having ideas?
Texas Bermuda Triangle (Score:3)
Slightly off-topic, but what is stopping Tesla from establishing a franchise store in Texas? What stops Elon Musk from personally establishing an dealership like any other?
On a side note (Score:3)
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Yep, because only Tesla cars ever catch on fire, not regular cars. Oh, wait, there are 17 google results for the extremely specific phrase "ups truck caught on fire", which seem to reference at least a handful of actual occurrences. (Yes, 17 is pretty low, but that is also a very specific phrase. I'm sure I could find more if I searched for variations.)
Re:If UPS/FedEx use this technolgy in their trucks (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess we should have stopped taking flights in Boeing air planes after they had electrical fire issues right?
If everybody was as negative as you are towards progress we would still be trying to figure out how to contain fire.
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We called that the "Whoopsie" on the Boeing 737 engineering team.
That was a fun problem to debug.
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From the time it was isolate to when there was a mechan
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I stopped flying in 737's until Boeing implemented a workaround for the hardover rudder problem that caused 737's to yaw on their side and fly straight into the ground.
Yes, hopefully you switched to the Airbus competitor to the 737 which had no problems with the rudder, just an issue with the screw sheering off on the elevator.
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One of mine actually WAS destroyed that way. In a diesel delivery van.
All vehicles burn nicely, and the fire need not begin with either petrol or EV drive batteries. Google "Ford cruise control switch fires".
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Locomotives are electric[diesel-electric] and I think they work plenty hard. Stop regurgitating American truck commercials. Going to Walmart and McDonalds is not hard.
Re:Locomotives are electric[diesel-electric] (Score:3)
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Locomotives are turbine-electric and diesel-electric HYBRIDS.
A hybrid truck could be a terrific jobsite vehicle, and some companies have done conversions, but Tesla aren't proposing a hybrid.
[quote]
Stop regurgitating American truck commercials. Going to Walmart and McDonalds is not hard.
[/quote]
Millions of us in Flyover Country use our trucks as tools, not suburban dick jewelry. I like the relative simplicity of PHEVs, but none exist which are suitable replacements for even an F-150-sized truck. Go
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Locomotives are turbine-electric and diesel-electric HYBRIDS.
They are not. They are diesel-electric (not hybrids). And outside of some historical experiments, they never incorporate turbines*. In this application, electric power is used since mechanical transmissions are not practical or cost effective. Electric power gives more control and torque at low speeds. There is no battery storage of power, so they are not "hybrids". Similar technology is used in some marine applications for reasons of controllability, eliminating a mechanical transmission, and flexibi
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A Ford F-150 truck with Ecoboost weighs 4,935 pounds. A Tesla S weighs 4,647. Right about the same weight.
The F-150 is a full-size truck with a heavy chassis, and a 11,300 pound towing capacity. A Tesla S is a little sedan. By the time the Tesla S is beefed up to truck capability, it is going to weigh a lot more than the Tesla sedan, and also a lot more than the F-150.
The F-150 pays fuel taxes which are used for road maintenance. The much heavier Tesla will pay zero. Plus, the F-150 owner will h
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So what truck does all things for all people? (Score:3)
Do you also look down your nose at people who buy two-door F150's because they can't seat 5 passengers or tow 18,000 lbs? It's about buying what fits your needs, and not everyone needs a truck for 300 miles a day, 6 days a week, anymore than everyone needs a F450 Super Duty Crew Cab.
/statingtheobvious
Right, no profit from niche features or luxury (Score:2)
That's why Mercedes and BMW went out of business in the 50's, and GM discontinued the Cadillac line during the Carter Administration. As for Ford, they stopped making the high end 450 dualies because no one buys pickups for more than $30k.