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NHTSA Tells Tesla To Stop Exaggerating Model S Safety Rating

timothy posted 1 year,6 days | from the all-the-kids-are-above-average dept.

Transportation 284

cartechboy writes "There's always that kid in the class that ruins it for everyone when being graded on a curve. At the moment, that kid is Tesla and Elon Musk. Tesla's been proudly claiming the Model S is one of the safest cars in the word despite the recent fire controversy. And while it may be just that, claiming it earned 5.4 stars from NHTSA isn't pleasing the safety agency as there is no such thing as a rating higher than five. While NHTSA already released a statement indirectly to Tesla saying it doesn't release ratings higher than 5, Tesla continued to promote this fictitious rating. Now NHTSA has updated its guidelines explicitly stating safety ratings are whole numbers only and that 5 stars is the maximum advertisers can claim. If advertisers and automakers decide to disregard these rules NHTSA is threatening removal from the program or referral to state authorities for appropriate action. Basically, hey Tesla, stop making false claims."

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He'll love that (4, Funny)

Joce640k (829181) | 1 year,6 days | (#45484947)

My car's rating is higher than the maximum rating allowed by the NHTSA.

Re:He'll love that (1)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485345)

What car?

Re:He'll love that (1)

Tablizer (95088) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485593)

so you shall be modded up to Score: 5.

I wonder what Elon's rebuttal to this will be... (5, Funny)

Midnight_Falcon (2432802) | 1 year,6 days | (#45484971)

Stay tuned for Elon Musk's critique of the NHTSA and long blog post detailing why the NHTSA is a bunch of corrupt scumbags and how Tesla is so awesome that it is able to get ratings above a perfect score.

Re:I wonder what Elon's rebuttal to this will be.. (2)

i kan reed (749298) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485171)

Yeah, Musk is self-righteous and crazy intense about the PR for his companies. However, this seems like a warning that was justified, and at the same time might not have been foreseen by those making the claims, because it's kind of a technical quibble.

Re:I wonder what Elon's rebuttal to this will be.. (4, Insightful)

FlyHelicopters (1540845) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485219)

Musk might even be correct, but one must always be careful around government types, they'll use your own tax dollars to smack you down and have nothing better to do.

Sometimes you have to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, and know when to walk away.

Re:I wonder what Elon's rebuttal to this will be.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485493)

Musk might even be correct, but one must always be careful around government types, they'll use your own tax dollars to smack you down and have nothing better to do.

Sometimes you have to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, and know when to walk away.

And know when to make snarky passive-aggressive comments, apparently.

Re:I wonder what Elon's rebuttal to this will be.. (4, Funny)

MiniMike (234881) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485307)

The next Tesla ad will claim a safety rating of 11.0 stars from the NHTSA (small print: National Highway Tesla Sales Association).

Re:I wonder what Elon's rebuttal to this will be.. (0)

intermodal (534361) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485339)

To be fair, Musk would be completely correct in doing so on decrying the NHTSA. Like most government agencies today, they are usually so busy defending policies regardless of whether they are still of value or not.

On the Tesla evangelizing, I fully expect it of him and find it hilariously unconvincing when he does it.

Re:I wonder what Elon's rebuttal to this will be.. (4, Insightful)

bluefoxlucid (723572) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485409)

About 80% of the comments already seem to be talk about how the NHTSA actually did give them a 5.4, but only allows them to advertise whole numbers and nothing above 5. So... it's a technical dispute over bureaucratic assholery.

Sorry NHTSA (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45484973)

I can't hear your complaints over my cranked-up-to-11 sound system.

-Elon

Re:Sorry NHTSA (4, Funny)

ElectricTurtle (1171201) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485235)

Pfffff...... his sound system goes to 11 .4 , bitch!

Wow, thanks for the info /. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45484975)

I'm so glad that Slashdot and its mysterious oily benefactors are here to protect me from the evil lies of Elon Musk!

Re:Wow, thanks for the info /. (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485151)

I'm so glad that Slashdot and its mysterious oily benefactors are here to protect me from the evil lies of Elon Musk!

Musk created the PayPal scumbags - so, FUCK YOU!

Elon will always be a liar to me.

Re:Wow, thanks for the info /. (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485247)

What's that? With Elon's dick in your mouth all I hear is mumbling.

Re:Wow, thanks for the info /. (1)

NatasRevol (731260) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485453)

Now you're bragging FOR him?

Re:Wow, thanks for the info /. (2)

TapeCutter (624760) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485341)

Oh come on, it doesn't matter what Slashdot think, Musk is still just a side-show scammer who got lucky.

Re:Wow, thanks for the info /. (2)

Desler (1608317) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485429)

oily benefactors

Hey, now! Dice.com is a lot of things but that's a low blow!

tesla_s_rating = (float) nhtsa_rating; (2)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45484981)

I guess casting the nhtsarating is not allowed.

Re:tesla_s_rating = (float) nhtsa_rating; (3, Informative)

brainboyz (114458) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485169)

Would still only result in whole numbers, assuming nhtsa_rating is some form of uint.

Re:tesla_s_rating = (float) nhtsa_rating; (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485239)

Not if nhtsa_rating is a union variable. Then it could be anything.

Re:tesla_s_rating = (float) nhtsa_rating; (1)

bobbied (2522392) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485533)

Oh you C programmers are all alike... The heck with type safety! Who needs it?

Misleading (5, Informative)

gabeman-o (325552) | 1 year,6 days | (#45484987)

It got a 5.4 rating, but the NHTSA guidelines only allow them to advertise a whole number.

Re:Misleading (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485043)

It got a 5.4 rating, but the NHTSA guidelines only allow them to advertise a whole number.

Yet that's the actual, accurate score. I don't see why the actual score can't be reported?

Re:Misleading (5, Insightful)

Tailhook (98486) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485495)

Yet that's the actual, accurate score. I don't see why the actual score can't be reported?

There is no analytical basis to explain exactly how 5.1 is less safe than 5.4 and the analysis makes no such claim. If the NHTSA allowed manufacturers to abuse the figures by claiming these fractions are meaningful then the rating system would lose credibility. Ultimately manufacturers might game the system to amplify a meaningless fraction.

Tesla had this explained to them and Tesla ignored it. Now the NHTSA has had to get official on their asses and tell them to stop. This is Tesla's own fault, whether the fanbois like it or not.

Re:Misleading (2, Funny)

sahuxley (2617397) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485049)

No, you're still misunderstanding. Musk is saying they got five separate ratings of 0.4 stars.

Re:Misleading (5, Informative)

harvestsun (2948641) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485275)

I don't know why this was modded as funny, it's right out of the article:

NHTSA does not publish a star rating above 5, however safety levels better than 5 stars are captured in the overall Vehicle Safety Score (VSS) provided to manufacturers, where the Model S achieved a new combined record of 5.4 stars.

Re:Misleading (1)

NatasRevol (731260) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485477)

Musk: Fine. Here's the new PR: "The NHTSA's vehicle safety score for the Model S is the highest ever recorded at 5.4"

Re:Misleading (1)

93 Escort Wagon (326346) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485609)

There are lots of cars with five star crash ratings - for all we know, some of those have received a 5.2 or 5.3 or 5.39 or whatever on that particular test. But those other cars' manufacturers have always used the scoring system as intended by the NHTSA, and just listed "5".

Musk is basically trying to make it look like there's a safety gap between his car and all the other five-star-rated cars, when there's no evidence that gap actually exists.

Re:Misleading (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485553)

If everyone else has the decency not to publish their VSS, how do we know that 5.4 is unusual in modern 5-star vehicles? You can assume that everyone else is hiding their numbers because their VSS was only 5.001, or you can assume that other companies have already had discussions with NHTSA about what claims NHTSA will support and what claims NHTSA will not support.

Re:Misleading (3, Interesting)

CastrTroy (595695) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485327)

Which cars don't have a 5 star crash rating? What's the lowest rating for being allowed on the road? Seems like the ratings are kind of useless if every car is rated with a 5. Just from clicking around on their site, I randomly selected 5-6 cars, and all of them had a 5-star overall crash rating.

neener neener neener (5, Funny)

spirit_fingers (777604) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485003)

Liar liar car on fire!

Re:neener neener neener (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485377)

Liar liar car on fire!

Paid shill?

Re:neener neener neener (4, Insightful)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485467)

Liar liar car on fire!

Paid shill?

Person with a sense of humor. You should go find one yourself.

Re:neener neener neener (2)

Tablizer (95088) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485515)

That's fine as long as it doesn't spread to my pants.

But, isn't that what Tony Starks would do? (0)

GodfatherofSoul (174979) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485011)

Say, "to hell with your slow ineffective bureaucratic government way of doing things, I'm going to snort a few lines and make up my OWN *better* rating system!" Then, bang a super model.

The secret to Teslas' energy efficiency (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485013)

I'm starting to think that the secret to Tesla's energy efficiency isn't electricity, as advertised, but Elon Musk's unlimited hot air.

Does a week go by without this guy blowing up about someone or exaggerating something?

Re:The secret to Teslas' energy efficiency (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485183)

That is part of running a business that's based on hype and perfect future outcomes.

(preparing to duck my head) (5, Funny)

Tablizer (95088) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485017)

If you like your Tesla safety rating, you can keep your Tesla safety rating.

Re:(preparing to duck my head) (1)

intermodal (534361) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485281)

I voted for the Tesla safety rating before I voted against it.

Re:(preparing to duck my head) (2)

Tablizer (95088) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485563)

Tesla's are people, my friend.

False? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485035)

Have they at any point said the claims were false or just not allowed to be made?

Re:False? (2, Informative)

Daniel_Staal (609844) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485135)

The claim is false: The NHTSA rates cars on a 5-point scale, and gave the Tesla S a 5-point rating, the highest they could get. This rating is based on several sub-ratings, where the Tesla also got 5-point ratings, in all categories.

Tesla is basically trying to claim for marketing purposes the fact that they got 5-point ratings in all of the subcategories (which isn't necessary for a 5-point overall rating, and in fact is extremely unusual, if not unique) means that they got 'better than a normal 5-point rating'. Which, ok, they did, but the rating only goes to five points. They can't create a new rating scale just for themselves.

Re:False? (4, Insightful)

QuasiSteve (2042606) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485279)

As far as I can tell, Tesla claims - as do several news outlets - that the NHTSA also releases some other raw numbers to the manufacturers which Tesla then decided to 'combine' (whether that's adding or averaging or whatever - who knows.) to give a 5.4 .

Really, the issue is lack of transparency - since we, the public, don't get to see those numbers. Thus we can't really give a good opinion other than "NHTSA says 5 is the maximum. THE MAXIMUM!" and all nod in agreement at the overlord's words apparently for fear of getting booted out.

This in turn leads to gems like this:
"No matter what, you can't say it's the safest car ever tested, just that it had the best overall test score of any vehicle tested by NHTSA." - NHTSA ( http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tesla-crash-test-rating-high-maker-claimed/story?id=20024779 [go.com] )

So it had the best overall test score .. but is not necessarily the safest. But the test is on safety. So it's the best in safety.. but not necessarily the best in safety.

Maybe while they're quibbling they could come up with a system that makes sense to themselves, the manufacturers and, most importantly, the public. If in the end that means Tesla does get a 5.4 and they want to hang on to 5 stars - well I guess they'll just have to lower the rating on a bunch of other cars.

Re:False? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485399)

Not quite. Tesla is not the one doing the combining. Tesla claims that the NHTSA provided some other numbers to the manufacturers and the NHTSA, in those numbers, included a combined "VSS" rating of 5.4.

Re:False? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485403)

They can't create a new rating scale just for themselves

They can. They did. Now all of you sore losers are crying about it and changing the rules. If what they have isn't awesome, then why aren't Ford, Chevy, or Toyota also getting scores above and beyond? The answer is because all of the other cars are shit and the big boys don't like being shown up. This has happened so many times in racing that I can't even remember them all. The Roadrunner Superbird, for one instance, whipped all of the other NASCARs so bad that they banned it. Those badass diesels in Lemans, that car with the big ass fan in the back, and so on have all been banned. When you make everyone else look bad, they gang up on you and run you off. Instead of getting all pissy about losing top safety score, perhaps the other cars should quit being cheap pieces of garbage and maybe earn them an above and beyond score too.

Re:False? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485141)

Indirectly.

They've said that their highest rating is a 5. Musk said that it got a rating of 5.4.

They're not saying the claim is false. Just that 5.4 is higher than 5. And 5 is the highest rating it can get.

So it can't be right.

CAPTCHA: Details

Cave Johnson (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485045)

Does anyone else think Elon Musk is an awful lot like Cave Johnson?

Re:Cave Johnson (1)

TapeCutter (624760) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485389)

His behaviour reminds me of Clive Palmer.

Oh man (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485055)

The Tesla advocates are not going to be happy about this one. No sir.

I can just feel the rage radiating through the story. All those fanbios, quivering with hate, turning red in the face and TYPING SO FAST!

LOL

Re:Oh man (1)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485357)

The Tesla advocates are not going to be happy about this one. No sir.

I can just feel the rage radiating through the story. All those fanbios, quivering with hate, turning red in the face and TYPING SO FAST!

LOL

This would be a lot more poignant if you had the balls to sign in before flaming.

Like me, since I agree with your post 100%.

Where there's smoke there's fire (-1, Offtopic)

JoeyRox (2711699) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485057)

If Tesla's bad press continues they may be forced to reduce their prices. Talk about a fire sale.

Try this excuse (2)

Tablizer (95088) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485069)

"Since we are marketing to nerds, we are using a base 12 numbering system".

This post smells like astroturf (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485077)

This Slashdot post has been brought to you by a collaboration between NHTSA and GM.

Bad title (5, Informative)

PureRain (231574) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485087)

Just to clarify, the NHTSA hasn't said anything to Tesla like the summary states. It has clarified its rating system. That is all.

That article is written like a high schooler's blog.

This happens when you go against the status quo... (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485097)

See how an electric car manufacturer pisses off big oil.....

If there's a fire all oil-controlled media report on it immediately.
If the range issues scare people, they build charging stations (big oil is fighting the legality of these currently)
If they have too good of a crash score, the score rating system is changed.
They are banned from selling in Texas because that's big oil's home turf....

Is it not obvious how they are just going against the status quo and being singled out because of it.....

Any thing Tesla does good will be re-regulated, changed, or banned from advertisement by law. They will NOT be able to win even if they are!

Re:This happens when you go against the status quo (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485383)

What do oil companies have to do with clarifying the safety ratings?

Re:This happens when you go against the status quo (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485385)

But-but-but...regulations are good! They protect society! Regulations are never used to suppress competition, youve been watching FOX news! You fucking Tea-Bagger!

Re:This happens when you go against the status quo (1)

Desler (1608317) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485595)

In what way is competition being supressed by the NHTSA clarifying their rating system? Only an idiot could come up with such shitty logic.

Re:This happens when you go against the status quo (1)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485535)

No, no, no.

If there's a fire all oil-controlled media report on it immediately.

"Oil-controlled media?" Geez, paranoid much?

Any paranoid with a lick of sense will tell you, the media is owned by Jewish bankers, not oil companies.

If the range issues scare people, they build charging stations (big oil is fighting the legality of these currently)

Uh, citation needed. Desperately.

If they have too good of a crash score, the score rating system is changed.

The system is the same as it's always been, there is no victim here (except consumers who don't know that the NHTSA rating system has always been a whole-numbers type that ranges from 0 - 5. OH, and people who don't realize that pretty much every new car on the road has a 4-5 star crash rating).

They are banned from selling in Texas because that's big oil's home turf....

Mythic hyperbole - they can sell all the cars in Texas that they want, provided Tesla plays by the same rules as every other auto manufacturer. I think what you meant to say here is, "Waaa, mean ol' TX wouldn't give Elon a special pass to do something that's illegal for everyone else!"

Because that's what actually happened.

But hey, don't let a little thing like facts or reality get in the way of a good 'woe is me, I've been victimized' rant. Otherwise I'd have to find a new hobby.

Genius and insanity go hand in hand (4, Interesting)

Dega704 (1454673) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485107)

Elon Musk would never have accomplished what he has if it wasn't for his rabid passion and forceful, egotistical personality. He is trying to change the status quo in an industry where many have tried and failed, and where many want Tesla to fail as well. He had best try to temper himself, though; lest he become our generation's Nikola Tesla/Howard Hughes in more ways than one.....

Re:Genius and insanity go hand in hand (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485223)

I am glad he has fire and passion. He is fighting against a lobby that spans centuries, so even if his claims might be a bit over the top, the people who want to seem him out of business are many, and are THE richest people out there.

He is competing against the most powerful people on this planet, so it is pretty darn amazing he has done this well. He also has showed the auto industry is stagnant -- his first commercial vehicle faster than most sports cars except the high end Italian makes? Impressive. Same car using a completely new drivetrain? More impressive. Same car with zero deaths? Still more impressive.

Elon Musk may be a bit of a blowhard, but he is actually effecting change.

Compared to Teslas, what other electric vehicles out there can smoke even an average sports car like a Corvette? A Leaf? Maybe in free fall. A Prius. Nope. Elon Musk has made a completely new car category, something not seen since the soccer moms wanted station wagons back, but didn't want them called station wagons, so they were named crossovers.

Re:Genius and insanity go hand in hand (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485455)

Elon Musk may be a bit of a blowhard, but he is actually effecting change.

Can't he effect change with an affect change, just to see what effect this could affect.

Rounding is stupid (1)

MrLogic17 (233498) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485117)

If safety is a good thing, and it's a good thing for consumers to prefer safer cars, why not add a decimal point or two?
If two cars are equally qualified in the minds a specific customer - and one car is 0.1 stars higher, why let that car get more sales?

Dude, let the free market drive safety higher! Just like EPA window stickers. Give the customer information. If Tesla really did rank 5.4, then let the other manufactures get some public shaming. Maybe they can respond to purchasing competition & catch up and make their cars safer.

Re:Rounding is stupid (4, Insightful)

BitZtream (692029) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485145)

Because the rating system isn't accurate enough to say for sure that .1 difference is accurate. The ratings are subjective enough that whole numbers are as accurate as you can get reliably.

Re:Rounding is stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485215)

Ah good old significant figures.

Re:Rounding is stupid (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485375)

But...round is safer than edged. Therefore round numbers are safer numbers!

Like they say, safety will out!

Shit sandwich people, open up, you voted for it. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485127)

If you like your lying Democrat you can keep your lying Democrat.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/new-health-plans-sold-through-exchanges-not-accepted-at-some-prestigious-nyc-hospitals/2013/11/20/7538dbb4-5235-11e3-9ee6-2580086d8254_story.html

"As of this week, not one of the plans for sale on New York’s health benefit exchange would cover treatment at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, one of the world’s largest and most respected cancer hospitals.

That could mean that the 615,000 individuals and 450,000 small business employees expected to eventually get their insurance through the exchange would have to go someplace else for treatment, or pay the bill out of their own pockets."

Obama and the Democrats lied repeatedly and deliberately that you would be allowed to keep your current plan, doctor and hospital under Obamacare. This was a lie and not just a little lie or a misstatement but a deliberate, intentional and purposeful lie. Obamacare would never have passed had they told the truth - that you will very likely be forced onto a more expensive plan that has fewer benefits.

You can distract and complain all you want, but you cannot deny this fact - and what's more you cannot hide this fact from the public who is opening their eyes more and more every day to this monstrosity.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/20/second-wave-health-plan-cancellations-looms/

And by the way, fully 30 to 50% of you will all be losing your health insurance in the coming year.

Shit sandwich people, open up, you voted for it.

Re:Shit sandwich people, open up, you voted for it (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485193)

This post brought to you by GOP Astroturfing, Inc.

Re:Shit sandwich people, open up, you voted for it (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485313)

No, that's not actually true.

But I do note that you do not even attempt to dispute the fact that the Democrats lied like rugs - and continue to this day, to prop up and otherwise support this monstrosity of a bill that is destroying the fabric of our society.

All you can come up wiht is silly little soundbytes that mean nothing at all.

Pathetic.

Re:Shit sandwich people, open up, you voted for it (1)

Lendrick (314723) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485433)

BUT OMG ASTROTURF DEMOCRATS LIE REPUBLICANS TELL THE TRUTH BLARGH

You know what? We did vote for it. Let's see how it turns out rather than making wild predictions. If it fails, we own it. If it doesn't fail, we own it. The people paying you seem to be willing to pay any price in blood or money to make sure the Democrats fail. Why are they trying so hard to get rid of the law before it has a chance to work? Why not let it do its thing, and then when fire and brimstone rain from the sky, they can blame the Democrats and re-elect George Bush.

Re:Shit sandwich people, open up, you voted for it (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485559)

No, for a lot of reasons.

Look, it's already failed, the prices for the plans are unbelievable high - and that doesn't count the sy high deductables. Doctors that we all have relationships with and are in many cases needed to maintain continuity of care won't be covered. Employers are cutting back on hours and not hiring because of this law. The fail is epic and it's only beginning.

AND there is also the fact that these government programs, once they become entrenched, are nearly impossible to get rid of. No, no and hell no.

AND the fact that the whole thing is unconstititional. Screw John Roberts, that ruling was lawless - repeal is what has to happen.

Oh and fuck you with this "lets see how it turns out" crap. We are talking about healthcare for our children, our families, our enture economy and society, This law was passed by a one party majority of radical Democrats and was furthermore passed by trickery and bribery. We the people do not want it and it the impact to our society is intolerable.

Does that answer your question?

Oh and by the way it's already failed, did I mention that?

(1) The website is broken.

(2) The payment and accounting and administration back-end is unwritten, untested, and out of time.

(3) They are seriously out of time to do something about those 3.5 to 5 million people whose insurance has been cancelled. To be covered by Jan 1, they have to get a new plan by Dec 15, which means 140,000 to 200,000 of them need to be enrolling every day between now and then, including weekends and the Thangsfrickingiving holiday, which ain't gonna happen ya'll.

(4) Adverse selection a.k.a. the death spiral a.k.a. the shit spiral is coming.

(5) Next year we get to do this same song and dance with the group plans as the employer mandate kicks in.

(6) Lawsuits. There are some nontrivial lawsuits pending including the contraception mandate challenges and the suits based on the fact that the statute doesn't actually allow HHS to offer subsidies on the federal exchange or impose the employer mandate on states that didn't implement their own exchanges.

(7) There are still 40 million uninsured Americans according to President Obama. Which seems to me to be just a bit of a failure of the aims of Obamacare.

[8] The plans on the exchanges likely will not let people keep the provider networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists they currently use, making continuity of care impossible.

[9] Obamacare appears to be nothing more that an enormous expansion of Medicaid, the worst-performing health program in the country.

Re:Shit sandwich people, open up, you voted for it (1)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485611)

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Daes_Dae'mar [wikia.com]

It's just a big fucking game to them. All of them.

Now, all of you please stop with the OT political bullshit, thanks.

It's still the safest car... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485131)

if your funeral plans contain cremation.

Other manufacturers are jealous (5, Insightful)

Imagix (695350) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485155)

Apparently people aren't reading what's been said. Tesla's press release says: "National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the Tesla Model S a 5-star safety rating", and "NHTSA does not publish a star rating above 5". Thus Tesla is not claiming that they were assigned a 5.4 since they outright acknowledge that NHTSA doesn't publish a rating above 5. What Tesla did say is that if one were to take the individual scores that were provided by the NHTSA (which apparently includes ratings above 5, and possibly decimal as well) and average those, the resultant number would be a 5.4.
Now what is probably getting the other manufacturers upset is that the clipping of the results at 5 means that the vehicles that just squeaked into the 5 look the same as vehicles which may have blown past the 5. If they didn't like that, why aren't the individual scores also integral and clipped at 5? Then one could not possibly claim (or even appear to claim) a number higher than 5.
So, this whole release is trying to beat up Tesla for something they didn't say. They didn't say that the NHTSA awarded them a 5.4 rating (see the first quote). They did say: "achieved a new combined record of 5.4 stars.".

Re:Other manufacturers are jealous (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485323)

Because the accuracy of these numbers is not to two significant digits. I doubt it's accurate to even one significant digit. You can't claim that Telsa is better because it scored a 5.4 when another car scored a 5.3 if the margin of error is greater than .1, which it certainly is. The press release does this:

Tesla Model S Achieves Best Safety Rating of Any Car Ever Tested

. No, it was rated a 5, just like many other cars.

Re:Other manufacturers are jealous (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485371)

They didn't say that the NHTSA awarded them a 5.4 rating (see the first quote). They did say: "achieved a new combined record of 5.4 stars.".

Weasel words. The whole point of the ratings is to allow oranges-to-oranges comparisons. If Tesla's 5 star rating is better than some other companies 5 star rating, and this reflects a meaningful distinction, then the ratings should be overhauled to make that distinction obvious.

If the NHTSA's determination is that there is no meaningful distinction between two 5 star ratings regardless of the respective combined scores, then then Tesla is abusing the NHTSA ratings system to confuse customers and undermine NHTSA's authority over their own standard.

Let Elon Musk establish a TESLA-STAR rating and give his cars a jillion stars and everyone else's negative 10 stars if he needs an angle.

Up next: "Zero Emissions" claim (2)

Powercntrl (458442) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485159)

Here in the USA, the grid is 68% fossil fuels [eia.gov] . So unless Tesla is including a free ZPM [wikia.com] with every purchase, "Zero Emissions" is a crock of shit, just like a 5.4 star safety rating.

Re:Up next: "Zero Emissions" claim (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485205)

I often see other cars with Partial Zero Emissions stickers. This confuses me as any part of zero is zero.

Re:Up next: "Zero Emissions" claim (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485363)

Was it a Zero Emmisions sticker torn in half? Maybe this way they can get it on to two cars, and save on the environmental impact of the sticker?

Re:Up next: "Zero Emissions" claim (1)

necro81 (917438) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485577)

I often see other cars with Partial Zero Emissions stickers. This confuses me as any part of zero is zero.

you are mathematically correct. It's bureaucratic gobbledygook.

The PZEV rating [wikipedia.org] basically means that the car's emissions of everything *other than* CO2 are about as close to zero as you can get within the limits of chemistry. So the catalytic converters are top notch, the fuel handling system allows for ~0 vapor loss, NOx and CO out the tailpipe are nearly zero, particulates are avoided or captured.

PZEV is all great for air quality metrics like ozone and PM2.5, but doesn't do squat in terms of CO2, which is the emission that most people think about these days.

So why have such a rating at all if it doesn't include CO2? As far as I know, this came largely out of California, which has had really stringent car emissions standards for decades. The California Air Resources Board [wikipedia.org] wanted a large number of "Emissions Free" vehicles on the road - battery-electrics and fuel-cell vehicles - but realized they weren't going to get anywhere close to that. So they created the PZEV rating as a "close enough" standard.

Re:Up next: "Zero Emissions" claim (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485293)

Well, when Elon takes on the power grid and converts it all to thorium/solar, then he'll be able to back that claim up.

Interestingly, I think that Elon is one of the few who could actually accomplish this.

Re:Up next: "Zero Emissions" claim (1, Troll)

ls671 (1122017) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485407)

The Tesla has a 180% efficiency battery wise. You get 1.8 time the energy you put in the batteries on output. So the 68% is fossil fuel is canceled out.

Re:Up next: "Zero Emissions" claim (5, Insightful)

NoImNotNineVolt (832851) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485417)

The Tesla, a vehicle, does not generate emissions.

If you charge it with carbon-sourced electricity, the Tesla, a vehicle, still doesn't generate emissions.
If you strap a diesel generator to the roof to run your personal electronics, the Tesla, a vehicle, still doesn't generate emissions.
If you load up the trunk with flatulent cattle, the Tesla, a vehicle, still doesn't generate emissions.

That some people have trouble parsing natural language is not Elon's problem.

The Tesla Model S has a 5* Rating (1)

justcauseisjustthat (1150803) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485175)

A 5* (or 5 Star) has to be better than 5 and definitely better than 5.4.
Plus they can claim it was a footnote that was mistakenly left off.

So how did he get a 5.4? (2, Interesting)

gameboyhippo (827141) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485199)

Anyone have any explanation on how he got a 5.4? I don't think Musk would just arbitrarily post a number.

Individual Ratings (3, Informative)

Imagix (695350) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485233)

Yep. The NHTSA apparently gives the manufacturers the individual ratings in each category, which presumably go above 5 and may be decimal. They may have some sort of agreement that they aren't allowed to publish the individual ratings.

Re:So how did he get a 5.4? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485353)

They already address this in there 19-Aug-2013 press release: http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-rating-any-car-ever-tested

Quote:
"Approximately one percent of all cars tested by the federal government achieve 5 stars across the board. NHTSA does not publish a star rating above 5, however safety levels better than 5 stars are captured in the overall Vehicle Safety Score (VSS) provided to manufacturers, where the Model S achieved a new combined record of 5.4 stars."

What a piece of Junk! (4, Funny)

freeze128 (544774) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485481)

"She'll make .5 past light."
"She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."

Re:So how did he get a 5.4? (1)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485597)

The same way Siskel and Ebert often gave 2.4 thumbs up for films with nudity, but they only allowed papers to publish whole numbers.

"That's no thumb!"

Safest in the word... (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485221)

But maybe they ARE the safest cars in the word. I mean, the summary doesn't say that they claim to be the safest cars in the world , just the safest in the word. Maybe words do get 5.4 ratings from the National Hard To Spell Authority (NHTSA).

Is Rob Reiner on the board? (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485241)

"Our amps go up to 11"

corepirate nazi analcyst numerologists (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485245)

combustion based desperados providing gangsterious decimation by the decimal & we pay for that too

"False" claims? (1)

trekkielp (2427714) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485251)

So, what they're saying is "Yeah, his car really did get a 5.4, but we don't want him to SAY so"?

what they said about free software (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485283)

explosive disruption was the madison ave. terror touts' claim

Tesla uses different scales for things (1)

the_other_one (178565) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485295)

The Tesla volume control on the radio goes to 11.
The Tesla safety scale goes to 5.5.
5.4 is less than perfect.

Re:Tesla uses different scales for things (2)

Ecuador (740021) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485443)

No, you don't get it.
All volume controls go to 10.
Nigel's go to 11. They are one louder.
Similarly, all safety ratings go to 5.
Tesla's goes to 5.4, it is .4 safer. For example say that you are in the safest car you could find, it is all the way up to 5 stars safety rating. All the way up. But you want it a little more safer, to be able to go over the cliff, so what can you do? That's where Tesla comes, giving you that extra .4.

NHTSA rating: floor(average(value)) (1)

mveloso (325617) | 1 year,6 days | (#45485343)

Musk must have used the wrong formula when publicizing the Tesla rating.

Learned honesty from the master (0)

Anonymous Coward | 1 year,6 days | (#45485397)

"If you like your plan, you can keep your plan"

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