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German Chancellor Proposes European Communications Network

Soulskill posted about 9 months ago | from the because-internets-need-borders dept.

The Internet 197

An anonymous reader sends word that German Chancellor Angela Merkel wants to build a European communication network to keep data transmission away from the United States. She plans to discuss the issue with French President Francois Hollande. "Merkel said in her weekly podcast that she disapproved of companies such as Google and Facebook basing their operations in countries with low levels of data protection while being active in countries such as Germany with high data protection. 'We'll talk with France about how we can maintain a high level of data protection,' Merkel said. 'Above all, we'll talk about European providers that offer security for our citizens, so that one shouldn't have to send emails and other information across the Atlantic. Rather, one could build up a communication network inside Europe.' Hollande's office confirmed that the governments had been discussing the matter and said Paris agreed with Berlin's proposals."

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Just a Band-aid (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258757)

to the problem of what the NSA is doing. And if an organization does it within Europe, what then?

as they say (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258767)

"He may be a bastard, but he's our bastard"
  I'd much prefer the data to be captured by European organizations than the NSA.

Re:as they say (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258861)

"He may be a bastard, but he's our bastard"

  I'd much prefer the data to be captured by European organizations than the NSA.

Yeah but this bastard will be the first stone in creating the big firewall of Europe. It's not a desirable outcome at all.

Re: as they say (3, Insightful)

emakinen (875208) | about 9 months ago | (#46258997)

Better to have firewall of EU than global jail by US.

Re:as they say (5, Insightful)

Luckyo (1726890) | about 9 months ago | (#46259023)

When you are threatened by a great evil that wants all data you have, your choices are to firewall yourself off or surrender.

This is true on both micro or macro scale, and we have discussions on how to protect our data on micro scale here on slashdot all the time. It's quite sad that when people view it as "well it's our evil guy" suddenly massive theft of data becomes completely justified and counter measures undesirable.

Re:as they say (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259175)

Why noone is talking about firewalling EU off from the inside. Its way easier to firewall USA off from the outside.
And that is why you should never get caught spying on Merkels phone.

3rd Choice = Digital haystacks (5, Interesting)

retroworks (652802) | about 9 months ago | (#46259241)

There is a third choice. Data pollution. What I really want is a program that doesn't require me to do it manually - entering in false "tags", random "birthdates", and randomly searching for consumer items I don't necessarily have interest in. Antiphorm was evidently a program developed to do something like this, but it disappeared.

Cookie camouflage, digital haystacks, bitshit, there must be a lot of names for it. Nature almost never evolves invisibility, but evolves camouflage. I haven't been able to interest any programmers in developing this, but think it could just be as simple as a browser hunting forms online and populating them with garbage.

"We all have a civil obligation to generate false data." - Spartacus, 71 BC

Re: 3rd Choice = Digital haystacks (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259271)

Because it doesn't work against well funded organisations like NSA. Random can quite easily be filtered out with statistics and probabilities.

Re:as they say (2)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46259011)

Why?

Personally, whether I get beat up by foreigners or by domestic bullies, I can't really feel that much of a difference...

Re:as they say (4, Interesting)

stenvar (2789879) | about 9 months ago | (#46259147)

I'd much prefer the data to be captured by European organizations than the NSA.

Because... why? The US government can do very little to a European citizen.

If you're European, it's the European organizations that can wreck your life.

Re:as they say (4, Insightful)

Sique (173459) | about 9 months ago | (#46259179)

The U.S. can do very much to an European citizen. Putting him on a no-fly list. Outbidding his company by tipping his bids to their own company. Stealing trade secrets and contract details to competitors. Damaging his reputation by disclosing secrets he has to keep to interesting parties. Letting some accidental data breach happen.

Re:as they say (5, Insightful)

St.Creed (853824) | about 9 months ago | (#46259239)

The U.S. can do very much to an European citizen. Putting him on a no-fly list. Outbidding his company by tipping his bids to their own company. Stealing trade secrets and contract details to competitors. Damaging his reputation by disclosing secrets he has to keep to interesting parties. Letting some accidental data breach happen.

Yes, I'm sure those things will have an impact on 99% of all EU citizens... Since we all regularly fly to the US doing business versus US competitors. Not.

Your own government doing this is much more dangerous than any other government: google "schleppnetzfahndung" and "berufsverbot" for nice examples of Germany in the 70's versus the trade unions, dissidents, journalists... they ruined the reputation of hundreds of thousands of people who just didn't toe the line. And it didn't just happen in Germany, lots of examples of EU governments doing stuff like that. Hell, the Greek government only recently removed the requirement that your religion has to be on the passport.

I'm not a fan of what the NSA has been doing, but let's be clear here: it was with full knowledge and cooperation of most EU intelligence services.

Socialists say: "the enemy is at home". I find that to be more prophetic every time I read the news, lately.

Re:as they say (1)

squiggleslash (241428) | about 9 months ago | (#46259359)

FWIW, no, it'll make no difference. The NSA and GCHQ has a fairly substantial data sharing thing going on (and probably does with other European agencies, it's just with The Guardian being based in the UK it focusses on the UK-NSA links.) Merkel's proposal probably has more to do with appearances than actual substance.

Re:Just a Band-aid (3, Insightful)

Coeurderoy (717228) | about 9 months ago | (#46258793)

Then at least there is an option to protest against the local "legally bad guy", the US is destroying democracy because in practice voting anywhere outside of the US is useless.
Either you live in a dictatorship (Like for instance Equatorial Guinéa wich is protected by the US petrol industry and whose "president" gets elected with 95+ % whenever he feels bored) and then voting is just a "show", or you live in a democracy, and then it does not matter who you are voting for because the US economy is basically bullying whom ever was elected into working in the way most profitable for the US, and the only choice is to be hurt "right now" by sanctions (and loose the next election) or being hurt by bad policies in a couple of year (and hopefully it will be the oposition's mess to handle)...

So unless the European Union starts to fess up and do exactly the kind of things Angela Merkel is proposing the world would be split between a disfunctional democracy (the US) and non democratic countries, where the most powerful is the one run by the Chinese "communist" party, not the most desirable outcome...
Including not very desirable for 99% of the US citizens, since it would end up with a small "elite" protected by an overreaching army and the rest of the citizens not really "needed" by the elite (with the exception of a minority of plumber, waitresses, hookers and other "personal service providers" ...)

Re:Just a Band-aid (3, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 9 months ago | (#46259165)

to the problem of what the NSA is doing. And if an organization does it within Europe, what then?

There's also the problem that hard outer shells tend to have a very tepid time protecting networks of nontrivial size if the stuff inside is still all soft and squishy.

You aren't going to run a network the size of Europe, or even part of it, without almost anybody who cares having a few listening stations set up, and if you plan on extending your EuroNet to anybody except specific state functionaries sending secure email to one another, you'll still have loads of users chattering with servers outside your shiny new network.

Is it probably a good idea not to use US cloud services corporations if you don't want the Americans watching you? Sure. Are the subsequent steps markedly more difficult? Oh definitely.

(Plus, the UK is a longstanding double-plus Freedom Buddy, and Germany has long been quite cooperative, so we'll see if they can find enough countries not collaborating with the US to even fill out a network...)

The actual quote (4, Funny)

fph il quozientatore (971015) | about 9 months ago | (#46258761)

Angela Merkel: "Screw Obama. I'm going to build my own internet, with blackjack and hookers. And privacy."

Re:The actual quote (2)

Znork (31774) | about 9 months ago | (#46258779)

Well, she'd better keep it out of Sweden. Apart from the Swedish opinion on hookers and blackjack, the Swedish FRA loves giving all data passing through the country to the NSA. The UK is as bad, although they don't quite share the Swedish hatred of hookers and blackjack.

Of course, whether any other European security agencies care about their citizens privacy is debatable.

Re:The actual quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258801)

Nah, blackjack is ok. Sweden has state-owned casions.

Re: The actual quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259279)

Hookers is also legal, only the johns are illegal in Sweden.

Re:The actual quote (3, Informative)

jones_supa (887896) | about 9 months ago | (#46259201)

Well, she'd better keep it out of Sweden. Apart from the Swedish opinion on hookers and blackjack, the Swedish FRA loves giving all data passing through the country to the NSA.

That's also why Finland wants an alternative pipe [slashdot.org] to mid-Europe and not be routed through Sweden.

Re:The actual quote (1)

St.Creed (853824) | about 9 months ago | (#46259251)

They also have to avoid the Amsterdam Internet Exchange. Good luck with that.

Re:The actual quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259371)

The proposition sounds like a scaled out version what Finnish authorities demanded from Telia-Sonera after the merger, as now the government data traffic would have gone through the FRA. Sonera naturally complied. It really shouldn't be a very large issue for the companies running the traffic. If they claim it is, well, there is that "special relationship" in action again.

Re:The actual quote (5, Funny)

isorox (205688) | about 9 months ago | (#46258783)

Angela Merkel: "Screw Obama. I'm going to build my own internet, with blackjack and hookers. And privacy."

And no Beta!

Re:The actual quote (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258897)

Privacy

Two things you can be sure of with this: you won't have any privacy (anonymity), it'll be built with DRM in mind.

In other words they won't make the same mistake again - it will be a lot like Pay-Per-View TV.

Re:The actual quote (2)

rasmusbr (2186518) | about 9 months ago | (#46259173)

Angela Merkel: "Screw Obama. I'm going to build my own internet, with blackjack and hookers. And privacy."

Actual plausible quote: "Damn it, the Americans are good at this snooping business. We need to close the snooping gap ASAP! Communicator, spin this so that it sounds like we care about the privacy of the common guy."

Re:The actual quote (2)

St.Creed (853824) | about 9 months ago | (#46259259)

Knowing Mrs Merkel's reputation, I'd say the blackjack and hookers quote is more plausible :)

Right. France. Trust Germany. This TIme! (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258765)

Because what are the chances of it happening yet another time?

Re:Right. France. Trust Germany. This TIme! (1)

Coeurderoy (717228) | about 9 months ago | (#46258775)

Well last time "France" "trusted" "Gernany" (without being invaded first) was at the time of Emperor Charlemagne (Karl der Grosse, Karolus Magnus, ...)
that didn't work so bad (untill he died and handed over to his incapable sons who splitted the whole shebang ...)

Re:Right. France. Trust Germany. This TIme! (2)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46259007)

Well, actually, the last time France trusted Germany was the formation of the EU.

Re:Right. France. Trust Germany. This TIme! (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | about 9 months ago | (#46259035)

The last time France (Alsace) and Germany (Saarland) trusted each other, what followed was the creation of EU.

The problem here is very simple. For the e-reforms EU wants to rely on Internet. They are simply forced to act, because they can't allow potentially sensitive data like tax information to flow via unreliable country like USA. The work in that direction was happening for some time now and I'm not really sure what current initiative entails. The only contentious point was the ICANN. One can see that EU and others want to fork it and if they are successful, the ICANN as we know it would be responsible exclusively for the Americas. IPv6 IMO has room for such actions.

Re:Right. France. Trust Germany. This TIme! (1)

stenvar (2789879) | about 9 months ago | (#46259161)

They are simply forced to act, because they can't allow potentially sensitive data like tax information to flow via unreliable country like USA

What difference does it make whether the US gets European tax information? What do you think they are going to do with it?

And what country do you think is "more reliable"? France, Sweden, Germany, etc.? Don't make me laugh. Their surveillance and espionage against their own citizens and each other has been known for decades.

Re:Right. France. Trust Germany. This TIme! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259183)

France and Germany have been very close for a long time now. WWII is ancient history.

bunch of tax wasting bullshit. (2)

Ruede (824831) | about 9 months ago | (#46258771)

bunch of tax wasting bullshit.

BND & NSA are working together to some extend.

how is this plan keeping our privacy safe?

Re:bunch of tax wasting bullshit. (2)

Coeurderoy (717228) | about 9 months ago | (#46258805)

It is not so much an issue specifically related to privacy, but globally the "Internet" is the "infrastructure" of everything we do... without a powerfull network "in the countries or meta-countries (EU)" over time "everything" migrates to a "cloud" that ends up being where the "biggest, cheapest" infrastructure is i.e. progressivelly the US, and therefore "everything" comes under the reach of the US laws, wich means in effect that for instance "I" end up delegating to US citizens my right to vote, and frankly ... I'd rather not ...

Re:bunch of tax wasting bullshit. (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46259001)

Huh? Not at all, why do you think that's the goal?

The goal is that the BND can more easily and the NSA less easily spy on you. Well, actually, that the NSA has to ask the BND for your data so they have something to bargain with.

Pfft (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258777)

She needs to grow the fuck up like it would matter when they're already spying on themselves just as much if not more than the NSA. Just to be clear I don't give two shits who is spying on me whether it is the NSA or someone else I DO NOT LIKE IT! PERIOD!

Re:Pfft (1)

Coeurderoy (717228) | about 9 months ago | (#46258819)

Nice try ...

So because the European governments are just as bad as the NSA we should not change anything and let the NSA go on spying on us ...

So how about we get the right to elect your representatives, senators and presidents after all at the en of the day this activity is costing us money (for instance whenever the US $ gets overprinted and becomes cheaper in practice it has the same effect as a tax on out exportations...

And what did those people say ? no taxation without representation ...

Now pleaqe get off my lawn ...

Re:Pfft (1)

penix1 (722987) | about 9 months ago | (#46258939)

So how about we get the right to elect your representatives, senators and presidents...

You basically already do. Citizens United made sure you can since money is speech and "political donations" can be hidden.

Re:Pfft (1)

Coeurderoy (717228) | about 9 months ago | (#46258969)

Well in the "best" of cases it would be a "Censitary" Suffrage where only people with enough money would be able to
vote and foreing "voters" need to pay more once to "buy" the vote and another time to "clean it up" and make it look
National....
And this kind of "democracies" do not end up very well...

Someone forgot how the Internet works (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258781)

It's an INTERCONNECTED network of networks. Someone can just as easily hook it back up to the 'old' Internet once it comes online.

Re:Someone forgot how the Internet works (2)

Coeurderoy (717228) | about 9 months ago | (#46258827)

Of course it will be "interconnected" the issue is "where will it be possible to host at a reasonable price services to european citizens" and therefore "what law does apply" ...

So... (1)

skovnymfe (1671822) | about 9 months ago | (#46258799)

Won't this European network just be subject to the same censorship and spying paid for by American and Asian entities, as the current internet is anyway? Are there even any non-American and non-Asian entities capable of implementing and maintaining such a large scale network on their own, including using their own custom built non-American, non-Asian hardware, manufactured in a non-American, non-Asian factory?

This is a seriously complex undertaking they're suggesting.

Re:So... (5, Insightful)

petes_PoV (912422) | about 9 months ago | (#46258851)

Are there even any ...

I think you've missed the whole point of this. The basic problem is that any packets that touch american soil become subject to american surveillance and american law. Even if the data / email / web pages are only transiting, fron one "free" country to another.

This is clearly unacceptable and since the americans don't have any motivation to fix the problem, the rest of the world (or at least: countries in Europe, at this stage) will just find a way to bypass it.

As the old saying goes: The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

Re:So... (1)

mapkinase (958129) | about 9 months ago | (#46258967)

>The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

In this particular case, it's more of an opposite, since American law enforcement is known for baiting people into committing crimes.

Re:So... (3, Insightful)

AchilleTalon (540925) | about 9 months ago | (#46258975)

Pretty much studip idea to solve the problem. Encryption is the way to go rather than trying to build a parallel infrastructure which will anyway be subject to laws of the countries where the infrastructure is installed. It doesn't solve anything. It is not like other countries are not spying anyone else.

In fact, the proposed solution may just create the problem as well. What she propose is what China is building, a network owned by the State, managed by the State and purposedly for the best interest of the State.

Re:So... (3, Insightful)

St.Creed (853824) | about 9 months ago | (#46259273)

Of course encryption would solve things. However, encryption would make it more difficult for her OWN intelligence service to spy on the citizens. That would be... double plus ungood.

Re:So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258985)

Are there even any ...

I think you've missed the whole point of this. The basic problem is that any packets that touch american soil become subject to american surveillance and american law. Even if the data / email / web pages are only transiting, fron one "free" country to another.

This is clearly unacceptable and since the americans don't have any motivation to fix the problem, the rest of the world (or at least: countries in Europe, at this stage) will just find a way to bypass it.

As the old saying goes: The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.

Or the Europeans see how great of an idea it is and want to make sure they are in on the action.

Re: So... (1)

cultiv8 (1660093) | about 9 months ago | (#46259043)

So everyone gets their own great firewall.

Re:So... (1)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | about 9 months ago | (#46259339)

The Americans aren't censoring the internet. Duh.

Re:So... (2)

c0lo (1497653) | about 9 months ago | (#46259073)

Won't this European network just be subject to the same censorship and spying paid for by American and Asian entities, as the current internet is anyway?

Think of this as an investment: at least they'll have to pay EU for it; the way it stands now, it's free.

Are there even any non-American and non-Asian entities capable of implementing and maintaining such a large scale network on their own, including using their own custom built non-American, non-Asian hardware, manufactured in a non-American, non-Asian factory?

Wake up from your exceptionalist dream, buddy. Last I checked, Alcatel is a French company [wikipedia.org] and it's eating Cisco's market [cnn.com] fast.

Merkel's virgin soil (3, Informative)

BitterKraut (820348) | about 9 months ago | (#46258807)

Remember, she's the one who called the Internet 'virgin soil' last year. But she's not the only one who has no clue. Every other week some European politician speaks up, demanding billions of tax payer's money to create an independent European IT industry. These noobs really seem to think there'll be a day when they can say, "Look, Obama, we've got our own Intel, we've got our own Microsoft, you can kiss our asses." At the same time, these guys complain that they can't run their offices with Linux: "It's too complicated for our staff. Give us back our Windows XP, our MS Office, our Internet Explorer."

Re:Merkel's virgin soil (1)

Dr. Evil (3501) | about 9 months ago | (#46258893)

That's just the opinion of a bitter kraut.

Re:Merkel's virgin soil (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46258971)

True, but she's still the chancellor, so her opinion sadly matters.

Re:Merkel's virgin soil (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | about 9 months ago | (#46259037)

.... we've got our own Intel

Where have you been for the past couple of years. Haven't you heard of ARM? (Hell, even Intel are using ARM chips in their technology demos)

Re:Merkel's virgin soil (1)

ThePhilips (752041) | about 9 months ago | (#46259059)

Remember, she's the one who called the Internet 'virgin soil' last year.

USA's health.gov launch was very mature then?

As public agencies go, it is a virgin soil. EU wants to transition all of the bureaucracy to electronic form to make it accessible EU-wide. That is something nobody done yet. So yeah, it is virgin soil.

Every other week some European politician speaks up, demanding billions of tax payer's money to create an independent European IT industry.

Independent of USA - yes, why not. The investments into R&D around IT industry here in EU wouldn't harm. You see problem from the perspective of newswire headlines. Living in Germany, I see the problem from inside: education system is inadequate and there are simply not enough specialists. EU can build its own computers and OSs: knowledge is here, but the lack of specialists makes it very expensive and impractical. This is the chicken and egg problem all over again: no specialists, leads to no projects, no projects leads to no demand for specialists, leads to no specialists.

At the same time, these guys complain that they can't run their offices with Linux

I've seen few German offices using SUSE already 10 years ago.

Re:Merkel's virgin soil (4, Interesting)

Jappus (1177563) | about 9 months ago | (#46259213)

At the same time, these guys complain that they can't run their offices with Linux: "It's too complicated for our staff. Give us back our Windows XP, our MS Office, our Internet Explorer."

May I remind you of projects like LiMux, which involved bringing the entire Infrastructure of the city of Munich over from Microsoft products to open source products based on and around Linux?

Projects that instead of failing, succeeded quite well. Where the users -- after an initial grumbling -- not only accepted it, but gave it quite better usability marks than the MS products. Users that are governmental offices, who are not exactly known for quickly embracing new ideas. In a federal state that's Germany's equivalent of Texas in terms of conservativeness.

So given that this project quite nicely showed that going away from the US Software companies, over to truly international Open Source software is very much feasible, even when you're just using the money you'd have spent on licensing costs anyway year-over-year, what's exactly the holdup?

Also, before you raise the flag of "lowered productivity", the entire switch-over happened progressively, without impacting users beyond them having to learn a few new clicks and buttons.

Now, avoiding US-based internet services is also not that hard.

  • There are plenty of European online mail providers.
  • Facebook is for most users also easily replaceable, given that their circle of friends (that they contact more than once a year) is usually entirely local; often less than a few hundred kilometers apart.
  • For video-on-demand, most people don't even know Netflix exists; but can probably name one or two local competitors -- simply because they want their films in their own languages.
  • There are more European online radio stations than you could ever want.
  • Even Slashdot, Digg, Reddit and others have perfectly fine local equivalents.

This list goes on and one; at least for Europe. Therefore, ignoring US services is only a matter of overcoming complacency, not one of sheer impossibility.

hello word (-1)

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let the experts do the job! (0)

stenvar (2789879) | about 9 months ago | (#46258843)

Yes, leave building such networks to the Germans: they have more than a century experience with building nation-wide espionage and surveillance networks, and they are very good at collecting and mining the resulting data.

Whatever.. but.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258853)

Whatever. But it should be free and secure.

No "you are trespassing into EU" messages in my browser and no "visitors from EU will be shot"messages in my browser when trying to look at huffpost.

No spying or recording of ones web activity either.

Re:Whatever.. but.. (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46258965)

I'd rather be concerned with "you're not allowed to see this out-of-EU webpage because we don't want you to. signed, your government" messages.

Good point (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259341)

Good point :|

Wrong Emphasis (4, Informative)

Dr_Barnowl (709838) | about 9 months ago | (#46258855)

The emphasis should be on encryption, not physical infrastructure. You can't audit, control and secure physical infrastructure for an internet, because it is by necessity, spread out across a large physical volume. You definitely can make it uneconomic to analyse the traffic.

Of course, this is probably an intentional oversight - all that infrastructure work is a great economic stimulus (or "pork barrel project" if you like). Why cloud the picture with reality when you can both spend billions of Euros on a jingoistic boondoggle AND still be able to collect SIGINT from your own people without difficulty?

Re:Wrong Emphasis (1)

mars-nl (2777323) | about 9 months ago | (#46258941)

Exactly. Just encrypt your stuff. The internet, even the EU internet, will be a more or less public space. Hundreds if not thousands engineers will have access to it. Any of those people might be a spy. Just assume the pipes are public and encrypt the data. It's much cheaper too.

Re:Wrong Emphasis (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258959)

She is talking about servers in datacentres. Hotmail should be forced to store emails for EU customer on servers in the EU that are subject to EU privacy laws.

TFS mentioning the NSA spying scandal is misdirection. The main issue is that American companies do not comply with EU laws on the use of personal data. They have subsidiaries based in the EU but because the servers are in the US can't easily be forced to act legally.

There is also the law enforcement access issue. On the one hand US law enforcement can access EU citizen's data without a warrant or the proper due process, but EU law enforcement have no such access because they have no jurisdiction over the data once it crosses the Atlantic.

Re:Wrong Emphasis (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258983)

There are at least two problems with encryption as a solution to everything:

1) Encryption is breachable, at least theoretically; and there is good reason to assume that our current 'encrypted' packets will be decryptable at some point in the future, either because of flaws/backdoors in the algorithm or because of increasing computing power.

2) Encryption does not hide the metadata in the header. At minimum, the source and destination IP address are visible. This can be solved by building a huge TOR style network, which might (or might not) be a better solution, but it is certainly not simpler than routing around the spooks

AFAIK there is no good reason why the EU could not define a part of the IP space for which messages destined from an internal address to another internal address never leave this space. Then, specific services could be mandated to keep their data within this internal space. Of course, NSA can still spy on that by intercepting on EU territory or simply asking our intelligence services.

The problem this is trying to solve is not that of spying, it is that of spying 'our' data from outside our jurisdiction. We don't route a telephone call from Germany to France via the US (where it 'can and will be' intercepted), why would we route an email that way?

Re:Wrong Emphasis (1)

petes_PoV (912422) | about 9 months ago | (#46259013)

No, encryption may be unbreakable now, but not in X years time.

So while it might appear like a solution (today), in the long term it is a failure. All you have to do is store the encrypted data and defer the spying - either on individuals or corporations until such a time as the technology to crack the encryption has progressed, While encryption allows protection up until that time, nobody is in a position to say how long it will be until any particular scheme is compromised. For all we know, ALL current encryption techniques could already have been broken, but like the british did with their Enigma cracks in WW2, the information gleaned isn't always sed for fear of exposing the surveillance capability.

Why not (2)

Kartu (1490911) | about 9 months ago | (#46258871)

Living in Germany, Snowden leaks didn't bother me much (and as I've heard from "Piraten Partei" member, most voters don't care either). I'm of no interests to secret services whatsoever and if checking my emails helps them fight some !@@#ers, I don't mind.
Intent DOES matter to me and I do not think that any government in western democracies would dare misuse this power for oppressing people.

From US perspective, I can understand you guys are worried about some of the surveillance being unconstitutional, but when law is breached at that level, it's like breaking UN laws, there is no authority to punish you.

To my knowledge, US (and, actually Israel) is present at German Exchange Points (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point) so this move is more of a gesture, rather than actual protection.

Nevertheless Merkel's move is good for EU, already because it would create more jobs in Europe, so I welcome it.

Re:Why not (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46258961)

Consider that most governments are either directly (through campaign contributions) or indirectly (by holding jobs hostage) dependent on corporations.

Now take a wild guess again whose interests they will protect first and foremost, and whether they coincide with yours.

Re:Why not (4, Insightful)

Znork (31774) | about 9 months ago | (#46258993)

I'm of no interests to secret services whatsoever

Yeah, that's not up to you to decide. Someone else will decide that and if your phone was at the wrong place at the wrong time and someone misread or misinterpreted some data you're going to be the guy on the floor with assault rifles pointed at your back and your family screaming around you. Better hope your realize the masked men are the cops so you don't struggle and get shot.

It's not like those doing the monitoring are certain to be competent or even guaranteed to be sane, and with signal-to-noise ratios being what they are and the extreme rarity of actual terrorists you can be sure that most hits will be false positives. Other people 'of no interest'.

Intent DOES matter to me and I do not think that any government in western democracies would dare misuse this power for oppressing people.

Oh, right, because we're not voting any representatives of ideologies that have shown no such restraint into power in Europe. Oh, wait...

So if you want to keep from being 'of no interest' in the future, better keep from saying anything that could possibly piss off communists, neonazis, religious fundamentalists or anyone else who might possibly wield power in the future during the rest of your life. The archives are going to remain but the intent of today has no binding power over future rulers.

Re:Why not (3, Interesting)

vadim_t (324782) | about 9 months ago | (#46259031)

Spying on this level isn't needed for when secret services "take an interest in somebody". There already are mechanisms for the authorities to wiretap you if they're concerned with you directly. There's no need to wiretap the entire net for that.

No, the purpose of such things is to assemble large databases of things like who talks to who, and for those purposes, you are of interest to secret services, as is everybody else. Let's say a friend of yours participates in some sort of environmental activism. Well, you both communicate, and that automatically makes you a person of interest.

Jobs for Europe? Think again (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259133)

Any large project will have to be advertised in the European Journal and therefore open to competition from ANYWHERE in the world. Then again according to EU rules, the lowest price wins.

I'm on business in India at the moment and the IT services industry is talking about 1T$ (one Trillion) worth of business by 2018.
That is Tata, Mastek and the rest including the offshore arms of Crapita and its ilk.
If you think that a Frenchie with their legal max of 35hours a week and 42 days holiday can beat the Indian crews then think again.
The same goes for just about everywhere in Europe.

Then of course, the NSA could bid at cost price of $0. IF they did that, the cat would really be amongst the canaries.(no pigeons here)

Anyway, go back to your ideal dreamworld where everyone in the EU has a job and is content.

Translation for those of you who dont speak politc (1)

hackus (159037) | about 9 months ago | (#46258875)

We can do a much better job of spying and industrial espionage on our citizens than the NSA can if we build our own network.

Re:Translation for those of you who dont speak pol (1)

Z00L00K (682162) | about 9 months ago | (#46259215)

All hail the new EU central committee that will govern our lives.

First German net, now this ... (4, Interesting)

garry_g (106621) | about 9 months ago | (#46258885)

Some time ago, there were suggestions by German Telekom of building a German infrastructure to ensure mails sent between German users would not be routed via the USA. Apart from ensuring German authorities would have it easier looking into traffic, I will hazard a guess that Telekom is lobbying to push this through, possibly forcing German providers to connect themselves to some newly designed infrastructure, which would most likely benefit German Telekom (either if they were operating those IXes, or by the lines put in to connect the providers). I do not have numbers as to the percentage, but most large to medium (and many smaller) German providers already are interconnected through DECIX, allowing for a short, cost-effective path between them. Oh, most, except for one - German Telekom (actually, they are connected, but do not have an open peering policy). Coincidence?

Why is it that so many governments seem so clueless with technology?

Re:First German net, now this ... (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46258953)

What do you expect when you staff governments essentially with 50+ years old lawyers?

RUB THE LOTION ON THE SKIN (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258891)

looks like meat's BACK on the MENU, BOYS!

TO HELL WITH YOU, FACEBOOK! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258901)

no no!
no no!
bubbles forming on my penis and i blow them away and they turn into butterflies with a penis face

Government & Stealth Malware (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258907)

Nobody Seems To Notice and Nobody Seems To Care - Government & Stealth Malware

        In Response To Slashdot Article: Former Pentagon Analyst: China Has Backdoors To 80% of Telecoms 87

        How many rootkits does the US[2] use officially or unofficially?

        How much of the free but proprietary software in the US spies on you?

        Which software would that be?

        Visit any of the top freeware sites in the US, count the number of thousands or millions of downloads of free but proprietary software, much of it works, again on a proprietary Operating System, with files stored or in transit.

        How many free but proprietary programs have you downloaded and scanned entire hard drives, flash drives, and other media? Do you realize you are giving these types of proprietary programs complete access to all of your computer's files on the basis of faith alone?

        If you are an atheist, the comparison is that you believe in code you cannot see to detect and contain malware on the basis of faith! So you do believe in something invisible to you, don't you?

        I'm now going to touch on a subject most anti-malware, commercial or free, developers will DELETE on most of their forums or mailing lists:

        APT malware infecting and remaining in BIOS, on PCI and AGP devices, in firmware, your router (many routers are forced to place backdoors in their firmware for their government) your NIC, and many other devices.

        Where are the commercial or free anti-malware organizations and individual's products which hash and compare in the cloud and scan for malware for these vectors? If you post on mailing lists or forums of most anti-malware organizations about this threat, one of the following actions will apply: your post will be deleted and/or moved to a hard to find or 'deleted/junk posts' forum section, someone or a team of individuals will mock you in various forms 'tin foil hat', 'conspiracy nut', and my favorite, 'where is the proof of these infections?' One only needs to search Google for these threats and they will open your malware world view to a much larger arena of malware on devices not scanned/supported by the scanners from these freeware sites. This point assumed you're using the proprietary Microsoft Windows OS. Now, let's move on to Linux.

        The rootkit scanners for Linux are few and poor. If you're lucky, you'll know how to use chkrootkit (but you can use strings and other tools for analysis) and show the strings of binaries on your installation, but the results are dependent on your capability of deciphering the output and performing further analysis with various tools or in an environment such as Remnux Linux. None of these free scanners scan the earlier mentioned areas of your PC, either! Nor do they detect many of the hundreds of trojans and rootkits easily available on popular websites and the dark/deep web.

        Compromised defenders of Linux will look down their nose at you (unless they are into reverse engineering malware/bad binaries, Google for this and Linux and begin a valuable education!) and respond with a similar tone, if they don't call you a noob or point to verifying/downloading packages in a signed repo/original/secure source or checking hashes, they will jump to conspiracy type labels, ignore you, lock and/or shuffle the thread, or otherwise lead you astray from learning how to examine bad binaries. The world of Linux is funny in this way, and I've been a part of it for many years. The majority of Linux users, like the Windows users, will go out of their way to lead you and say anything other than pointing you to information readily available on detailed binary file analysis.

        Don't let them get you down, the information is plenty and out there, some from some well known publishers of Linux/Unix books. Search, learn, and share the information on detecting and picking through bad binaries. But this still will not touch the void of the APT malware described above which will survive any wipe of r/w media. I'm convinced, on both *nix and Windows, these pieces of APT malware are government in origin. Maybe not from the US, but most of the 'curious' malware I've come across in poisoned binaries, were written by someone with a good knowledge in English, some, I found, functioned similar to the now well known Flame malware. From my experience, either many forum/mailing list mods and malware developers/defenders are 'on the take', compromised themselves, and/or working for a government entity.

        Search enough, and you'll arrive at some lone individuals who cry out their system is compromised and nothing in their attempts can shake it of some 'strange infection'. These posts receive the same behavior as I said above, but often they are lone posts which receive no answer at all, AT ALL! While other posts are quickly and kindly replied to and the 'strange infection' posts are left to age and end up in a lost pile of old threads.

        If you're persistent, the usual challenge is to, "prove it or STFU" and if the thread is not attacked or locked/shuffled and you're lucky to reference some actual data, they will usually attack or ridicule you and further drive the discussion away from actual proof of APT infections.

        The market is ripe for an ambitious company or individual to begin demanding companies and organizations who release firmware and design hardware to release signed and hashed packages and pour this information into the cloud, so everyone's BIOS is checked, all firmware on routers, NICs, and other devices are checked, and malware identified and knowledge reported and shared openly.

        But even this will do nothing to stop backdoored firmware (often on commercial routers and other networked devices of real importance for government use - which again opens the possibility of hackers discovering these backdoors) people continue to use instead of refusing to buy hardware with proprietary firmware/software.

        Many people will say, "the only safe computer is the one disconnected from any network, wireless, wired, LAN, internet, intranet" but I have seen and you can search yourself for and read about satellite, RF, temperature, TEMPEST (is it illegal in your part of the world to SHIELD your system against some of these APT attacks, especially TEMPEST? And no, it's not simply a CRT issue), power line and many other attacks which can and do strike computers which have no active network connection, some which have never had any network connection. Some individuals have complained they receive APT attacks throughout their disconnected systems and they are ridiculed and labeled as a nutter. The information exists, some people have gone so far as to scream from the rooftops online about it, but they are nutters who must have some serious problems and this technology with our systems could not be possible.

        I believe most modern computer hardware is more powerful than many of us imagine, and a lot of these systems swept from above via satellite and other attacks. Some exploits take advantage of packet radio and some of your proprietary hardware. Some exploits piggyback and unless you really know what you're doing, and even then... you won't notice it.

        Back to the Windows users, a lot of them will dismiss any strange activity to, "that's just Windows!" and ignore it or format again and again only to see the same APT infected activity continue. Using older versions of sysinternals, I've observed very bizarre behavior on a few non networked systems, a mysterious chat program running which doesn't exist on the system, all communication methods monitored (bluetooth, your hard/software modems, and more), disk mirroring software running[1], scans running on different but specific file types, command line versions of popular Windows freeware installed on the system rather than the use of the graphical component, and more.

        [1] In one anonymous post on pastebin, claiming to be from an intel org, it blasted the group Anonymous, with a bunch of threats and information, including that their systems are all mirrored in some remote location anyway.

        [2] Or other government, US used in this case due to the article source and speculation vs. China. This is not to defend China, which is one messed up hell hole on several levels and we all need to push for human rights and freedom for China's people. For other, freer countries, however, the concentration camps exist but you wouldn't notice them, they originate from media, mostly your TV, and you don't even know it. As George Carlin railed about "Our Owners", "nobody seems to notice and nobody seems to care".

        [3] http://www.stallman.org/ [stallman.org]

        Try this yourself on a wide variety of internet forums and mailing lists, push for malware scanners to scan more than files, but firmware/BIOS. See what happens, I can guarantee it won't be pleasant, especially with APT cases.

        So scan away, or blissfully ignore it, but we need more people like RMS[3] in the world. Such individuals tend to be eccentric but their words ring true and clear about electronics and freedom.

        I believe we're mostly pwned, whether we would like to admit it or not, blind and pwned, yet fiercely holding to misinformation, often due to lack of self discovery and education, and "nobody seems to notice and nobody seems to care".

        ##

        Schneier has covered it before: power line fluctuations (differences on the wire in keys pressed).

        There's thermal attacks against cpus and temp, also:

        ENF (google it)

        A treat (ENF Collector in Java):

        sourceforge dot net fwdslash projects fwdslash nfienfcollector

        No single antimalware scanner exists which offers the ability to scan (mostly proprietary) firmware on AGP/PCI devices (sound cards, graphics cards, usb novelty devices excluding thumb drives), BIOS/CMOS.

        If you boot into ultimate boot cd you can use an archane text interface to dump BIOS/CMOS and examine/checksum.

        The real attacks which survive disk formats and wipes target your PCI devices and any firmware which may be altered/overwritten with something special. It is not enough to scan your hard drive(s) and thumb drives, the real dangers with teeth infect your hardware devices.

        When is the last time you:

        Audited your sound card for malware?
        Audited your graphics card for malware?
        Audited your network card for malware?

        Google for:

        * AGP and PCI rootkit(s)
        * Network card rootkit(s)
        * BIOS/CMOS rootkit(s)

        Our modern PC hardware is capable of much more than many can imagine.

        Do you:

        * Know your router's firmware may easily be replaced on a hacker's whim?
        * Shield all cables against leakage and attacks
        * Still use an old CRT monitor and beg for TEMPEST attacks?
        * Use TEMPEST resistant fonts in all of your applications including your OS?
        * Know whether or not your wired keyboard has keypresses encrypted as they pass to your PC from the keyboard?
        * Use your PC on the grid and expose yourself to possible keypress attacks?
        * Know your network card is VERY exploitable when plugged into the net and attacked by a hard core blackhat or any vicious geek with the know how?
        * Search out informative papers on these subjects and educate your friends and family about these attacks?
        * Contact antimalware companies and urge them to protect against many or all these attacks?

        Do you trust your neighbors? Are they all really stupid when it comes to computing or is there a geek or two without a conscience looking to exploit these areas?

        The overlooked threat are the potential civilian rogues stationed around you, especially in large apartment blocks who feed on unsecured wifi to do their dirty work.

        With the recent news of Russian spies, whether or not this news was real or a psyop, educate yourself on the present threats which all antimalware scanners fail to protect against and remove any smug mask you may wear, be it Linux or OpenBSD, or the proprietary Windows and Mac OS you feel are properly secured and not vulnerable to any outside attacks because you either don't need an antivirus scanner (all are inept to serious attacks) or use one or several (many being proprietary mystery machines sending data to and from your machine for many reasons, one is to share your information with a group or set database to help aid in threats), the threats often come in mysterious ways.

        Maybe the ancients had it right: stone tablets and their own unique language(s) rooted in symbolism.

        #

        I'm more concerned about new rootkits which target PCI devices, such as the graphics card and the optical drives, also, BIOS. Where are the malware scanners which scan PCI devices and BIOS for mismatches? All firmware, BIOS and on PCI devices should be checksummed and saved to match with others in the cloud, and archived when the computer is first used, backing up signed firmware.

        When do you recall seeing signed router firmware upgrades with any type of checksum to check against? Same for PCI devices and optical drives and BIOS.

        Some have begun with BIOS security:

        http://www.biosbits.org/ [biosbits.org]

        Some BIOS has write protection in its configuration, a lot of newer computers don't.

        #

        "Disconnect your PC from the internet and don't add anything you didn't create yourself. It worked for the NOC list machine in Mission Impossible"

        The room/structure was likely heavily shielded, whereas most civvies don't shield their house and computer rooms. There is more than meets the eye to modern hardware.

        Google:

        subversion hack:
        tagmeme(dot)com/subhack/

        network card rootkits and trojans
        pci rootkits
        packet radio
        xmit "fm fingerprinting" software
        "specific emitter identification"
        forums(dot)qrz(dot)com

        how many malware scanners scan bios/cmos and pci/agp cards for malware? zero, even the rootkit scanners. have you checksummed/dumped your bios/cmos and firmware for all your pci/agp devices and usb devices, esp vanity usb devices in and outside the realm of common usb devices (thumbdrives, external hdds, printers),

        Unless your computer room is shielded properly, the computers may still be attacked and used, I've personally inspected computers with no network connection running mysterious code in the background which task manager for windows and the eqiv for *nix does not find, and this didn't find it all.

        Inspect your windows boot partition in *nix with hexdump and look for proxy packages mentioned along with command line burning programs and other oddities. Computers are more vulnerable than most would expect.

        You can bet all of the malware scanners today, unless they are developed by some lone indy coder in a remote country, employ whitelisting of certain malware and none of them scan HARDWARE devices apart from the common usb devices.

        Your network cards, sound cards, cd/dvd drives, graphics cards, all are capable of carrying malware to survive disk formatting/wiping.

        Boot from a Linux live cd and use hexdump to examine your windows (and *nix) boot sectors to potentially discover interesting modifications by an unknown party.

        #
        eof

If you can't get the message, get the man. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258909)

Memorable quotes for
Looker (1981)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00... [imdb.com]

"John Reston: Television can control public opinion more effectively than armies of secret police, because television is entirely voluntary. The American government forces our children to attend school, but nobody forces them to watch T.V. Americans of all ages *submit* to television. Television is the American ideal. Persuasion without coercion. Nobody makes us watch. Who could have predicted that a *free* people would voluntarily spend one fifth of their lives sitting in front of a *box* with pictures? Fifteen years sitting in prison is punishment. But 15 years sitting in front of a television set is entertainment. And the average American now spends more than one and a half years of his life just watching television commercials. Fifty minutes, every day of his life, watching commercials. Now, that's power."

##

"The United States has it's own propaganda, but it's very effective because people don't realize that it's propaganda. And it's subtle, but it's actually a much stronger propaganda machine than the Nazis had but it's funded in a different way. With the Nazis it was funded by the government, but in the United States, it's funded by corporations and corporations they only want things to happen that will make people want to buy stuff. So whatever that is, then that is considered okay and good, but that doesn't necessarily mean it really serves people's thinking - it can stupify and make not very good things happen."
- Crispin Glover: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm000... [imdb.com]

##

"It's only logical to assume that conspiracies are everywhere, because that's what people do. They conspire. If you can't get the message, get the man." - Mel Gibson (from an interview)

##

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." - William Casey, CIA Director

##

"The real reason for the official secrecy, in most instances, is not to keep the opposition (the CIA's euphemistic term for the enemy) from knowing what is going on; the enemy usually does know. The basic reason for governmental secrecy is to keep you, the American public, from knowing - for you, too, are considered the opposition, or enemy - so that you cannot interfere. When the public does not know what the government or the CIA is doing, it cannot voice its approval or disapproval of their actions. In fact, they can even lie to your about what they are doing or have done, and you will not know it. As for the second advantage, despite frequent suggestion that the CIA is a rogue elephant, the truth is that the agency functions at the direction of and in response to the office of the president. All of its major clandestine operations are carried out with the direct approval of or on direct orders from the White House. The CIA is a secret tool of the president - every president. And every president since Truman has lied to the American people in order to protect the agency. When lies have failed, it has been the duty of the CIA to take the blame for the president, thus protecting him. This is known in the business as "plausible denial." The CIA, functioning as a secret instrument of the U.S. government and the presidency, has long misused and abused history and continues to do so."
- Victor Marchetti, Propaganda and Disinformation: How the CIA Manufactures History

##

George Carlin:

"The real owners are the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians, they're an irrelevancy. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They've long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the statehouses, the city halls. They've got the judges in their back pockets. And they own all the big media companies, so that they control just about all of the news and information you hear. They've got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want; they want more for themselves and less for everybody else.

But I'll tell you what they don't want. They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them. That's against their interests. They don't want people who are smart enough to sit around the kitchen table and figure out how badly they're getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fucking years ago.

You know what they want? Obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork but just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly shittier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, reduced benefits, the end of overtime and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And, now, they're coming for your Social Security. They want your fucking retirement money. They want it back, so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They'll get it. They'll get it all, sooner or later, because they own this fucking place. It's a big club, and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club.

This country is finished."

Or better: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258911)

we will have a better edge to sell/deny information to you NSA on the SIGINT collected within our GermanNet

Shitty Deutsche Telekom (1)

stooo (2202012) | about 9 months ago | (#46258915)

All of this is because Telekom is making other ISPs paying insane fes for peering, which forces them to route through the USA instead to have peering at a lower cost indirectly to Telekom (also known as Drosselkom), passing all data directly to the NSA and co.

::: how to piss off an alien/human hybrid :::: (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46258925)

The 'beasts' share the same scent - how to piss off an alien/human hybrid

                                the hybrids carrying filthy spawn (like in the days of Noah) are easy to SNIFF out, literally, they all smell the same when you're in the proper state of mind.

                                some of them have eyes which appear to be bugging out of their face.

                                even if you can't detect the scent of the hybrids, or 'beasts', inhale deeply whenever the hybrids are close, don't express any emotion, just keep inhaling deeply and make your facial expression be that of deep contemplation.

                                when you do this, they know that you know what their true reality is - it's like the movie THEY LIVE where Nada sees the truth through the glasses and confronts them.

                                don't confront, just inhale deeply. maybe shake your head and laugh, mumble about stupid aliens but nothing deep.

How about... (1)

drolli (522659) | about 9 months ago | (#46258929)

The gouvernment which screwed end-to-end encryption by mandating a centralized "de-mail" concept to communicate with the administration shuts up.

Make a decentralized key signing (e.g. in the city hall) initiative, for a reasonable fee, and show your citizens hot to import these certificates in theirs browsers and mail programs.

Make sure the key generators use a decent random number generation, and for really important messages use one-time pads, or something which comes close.

All of my phones have enough storage for a real one-time pad for my important mail which i send in years. If mail providers would give me this opportunity (one-time pad for connection safety) and a decent PKI signing initiative would guarantee that the recipient can read the mail, then i would be happy.

One time pad connection safety would mean you can use this anywhere and choose a provider to your liking.

Re:How about... (1)

St.Creed (853824) | about 9 months ago | (#46259285)

I can picture this already. Sort of like how it would be happening in a Stainless Steel Rat novel :)

"Here is your mandatory super-secret one time pad, citizen! If you use this pad, all your mail is encrypted and impossible to break!"

"Oh, why thank you!"

Why do I keep reading things in such statements? (4, Insightful)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46258935)

Whenever Merkel makes a comment, I instantly wonder what her real intentions are. And this time it didn't take long, she wants control over what information is coming into her area of reign.

If she was honest about wanting the US spying to end she'd first of all ferret out and shut down the various spying locations still scattered across Germany. It's not like the US never had bases there or shut them all down...

Re:Why do I keep reading things in such statements (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 9 months ago | (#46259077)

Whenever Merkel makes a comment, I instantly wonder what her real intentions are. And this time it didn't take long, she wants control over what information is coming into her area of reign.

Correctamundo. There is only one answer for increasing communications freedom and it has nothing to do with an EU network.

If she was honest about wanting the US spying to end she'd first of all ferret out and shut down the various spying locations still scattered across Germany.

Bah, now you're straying well off-topic. Let's try this: The way to make communications free for the people (as in speech, not beer -- though that too) is to promote mesh networking and end-to-end, opportunistic encryption. She wants a more centralized network, which will have the opposite effect to promoting freedom. What we need is complete decentralization, with routing based not on a web of force, but a web of trust. Merkel is only interested in a web of lies.

Re:Why do I keep reading things in such statements (1)

hcs_$reboot (1536101) | about 9 months ago | (#46259119)

[Merkel] wants control over what information is coming into her area of reign

She can already pretty much control whatever is coming in, thanks to the routers that do the I/O with Germany. I think what she wants is to control what's going out...

Re:Why do I keep reading things in such statements (1)

Opportunist (166417) | about 9 months ago | (#46259203)

How do you control VPNs and Onion routing without heavy filtering that can hardly be hidden?

It already exists?!? (1)

Megol (3135005) | about 9 months ago | (#46258951)

It's called the Internet - a network of networks where a subset of networks are EU exclusive. The problem is how to make sure that data packets aren't routed outside the EU - but that is another thing entirely. It shouldn't be that hard technically.

Couple blackmails and pictures from US regime (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259029)

It will only take couple pictures of children going to school from US agencies shown to members of EU parliament and they can forget about independent network.

Re:Couple blackmails and pictures from US regime (1)

JockTroll (996521) | about 9 months ago | (#46259051)

Showing pictures of children going to school to members of the EU parliament will only result in them asking for more to jerk off to.

Extension to TCP/IP needed (2)

StripedCow (776465) | about 9 months ago | (#46259039)

An extension to TCP/IP is needed, where each packet contains a flag stating that it should not enter US-governed networks.

Plugging up the tubes (1)

tomhath (637240) | about 9 months ago | (#46259101)

Even Merkel's cell phone was reportedly monitored by American spies.

Merkel said in her weekly podcast that she disapproved of companies such as Google and Facebook basing their operations in countries with low levels of data protection while being active in countries such as Germany with high data protection.

Those two statements don't go together.

Re:Plugging up the tubes (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259141)

Just ban Facebook and Twitter. Save everyone a lot of time. Sure the spooks will be unhappy but who said that we have to make their job easy eh?
Don't even try to find me on any so called Social Media, coz I ain't there ok.

Re:Plugging up the tubes (1)

St.Creed (853824) | about 9 months ago | (#46259291)

I don't know about you, but if I communicate things in private I rarely use twitter. Or facebook.

What's the point (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259167)

When ask eu states are complicit in providing the nsa with data, gchq in particular

Now you've done it. You've pissed off the Germans. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259177)

Here we go again.

NSA salivates at the very notion... (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about 9 months ago | (#46259193)

...of a network to exploit which is not subject to US regulation and controls currently being put into place with respect to their operations on domestic networks.

Re:NSA salivates at the very notion... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259211)

Anything not on US soil is and always has been outside of US regulation. Other countries spy on the US, the US spies on them. Been that way forever.

Who says...? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 9 months ago | (#46259369)

Who says the US doesn't create jobs overseas?

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