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If Immigration Reform Is Dead, So Is Raising the H-1B Cap

Soulskill posted about a month ago | from the congress-members-shouting-at-one-another dept.

Government 341

dcblogs writes: In a speech Wednesday on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.) declared immigration reform dead. He chastised and baited Republicans in Congress for blocking reform, and declared that winning the White House without the support of a growing Hispanic population will become mathematically impossible. "The Republican Presidential nominee, whoever he or she may be, will enter the race with an electoral college deficit they cannot make up," said Gutierrez. If he's right, and comprehensive immigration reform is indeed dead, then so too is the tech industry's effort to raise the cap on H-1B visas. Immigration reform advocates have successfully blocked any effort to take up the immigration issue in piecemeal fashion, lest business support for comprehensive reform peel away. Next year may create an entirely new set of problems for tech. If the Republicans take control of the Senate, the tech industry will face this obstacle: Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa). Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Judiciary Committee could become its next chairman. He has been a consistent critic of the H-1B program through the years. "The H-1B program is so popular that it's now replacing the U.S. labor force," said Grassley, at one point.

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Unpopular opinion ahead (3, Interesting)

i kan reed (749298) | about a month ago | (#47335887)

H1B is merging with the us labor force, not replacing. The overwhelming H1B workers I know have either become citizens or are eager to do so.

No, they're replacing. (4, Informative)

ulatekh (775985) | about a month ago | (#47335981)

H1B is merging with the us labor force, not replacing. The overwhelming H1B workers I know have either become citizens or are eager to do so.

No, immigrants are replacing native workers. The Center For Immigration Studies just released a report [nationalreview.com] showing that all employment growth since 2000 has gone to immigrants, legal and illegal. There is no general labor shortage.

Re:No, they're replacing. (3, Informative)

i kan reed (749298) | about a month ago | (#47336041)

You say "no", but even if we accept the study by a hyper-partisan group with a specific objective of removing immigrants as valid, what you posted doesn't actually contradict what I said.

Now, we can argue to hell and back what constitutes "taking jobs", but the fact that they're trying as hard as possible to be Americans is an important one.

Re:No, they're replacing. (2)

i kan reed (749298) | about a month ago | (#47336083)

Okay, and after review of the actual publication [nrostatic.com] (not the editorial you linked) there is some highly suspect data point selection, picking just before a minor recession, a major recession, and right now as primary data points for employment information can lead to some skewed numbers.

I won't say I don't accept what's published there. The analysis isn't bad aside from that major point. But it does give me some concern that it wasn't compiled with an intellectually honest intent.

Re:No, they're replacing. (1, Flamebait)

kick6 (1081615) | about a month ago | (#47336539)

You say "no", but even if we accept the study by a hyper-partisan group with a specific objective of removing immigrants as valid, what you posted doesn't actually contradict what I said.

Now, we can argue to hell and back what constitutes "taking jobs", but the fact that they're trying as hard as possible to be Americans is an important one.

I struggle to call wanting citizenship to be "trying as hard as possible to be Americans." All of the foriegn workers I know live in insular communities with others from their region of the globe, and adamantly refuse to let go of the majority of their native culture including language and customs. That, to me, isn't trying all that hard to be an American...except on paper.

Re:No, they're replacing. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336693)

WTF, can we have EVERYONE in the world come here? That is a big F NO!
So we should give Mexican nationals first dibs because they were close enough to walk over?
Pull your head out, or sponsor some of these illegals YOURSELF.

Re:No, they're replacing. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336079)

Many if not most Americans used to be immigrants, or well, their parents or (grand+)parents.

Re:No, they're replacing. (0)

Grishnakh (216268) | about a month ago | (#47336141)

No, ALL Americans or their ancestors are immigrants. Every single one of them.

Also, every person in Europe is descended from an immigrant. So is every person in Asia.

The only place on Earth where there are people who are not descended from immigrants is Africa. Because that's where the first humans came from. Everyone else is a product of migration.

Re:No, they're replacing. (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about a month ago | (#47336247)

Well, yeah, if you want to be pedantic. But I'm pretty sure the intended meaning was "immigrant into the already extant nation called "the United States of America."

The exact kind of immigration people rail against forms the majority of most Americans' ancestry. There's nothing special or unique about a longer bloodline history. It's a silly thing to obsess over.

Re:No, they're replacing. (4, Interesting)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about a month ago | (#47336229)

No, immigrants are replacing native workers.

This is the Lump of Labor Fallacy [wikipedia.org] . There is not a fixed number of jobs in an economy. The number of jobs tends to expand when more workers are available. Liberal immigration policies are correlated with lower unemployment. When Poland joined the EU, most current members blocked immigration. The exceptions were Britain and Sweden, which subsequently had the lowest unemployment rates in Europe as Poles moved in, set up households, paid rent, bought furniture, and created plenty of secondary jobs.

The Center For Immigration Studies just released a report showing that all employment growth since 2000 has gone to immigrants

Just because A=B does not mean that A caused B. The number of jobs created would have almost certainly been even lower without immigration.

There is no general labor shortage.

Who said there was? But there are shortages in many areas. For instance, there is a big shortage of non-immigrant farm labor. Do you really believe that an unemployed white guy is going to pick lettuce?

Re:No, they're replacing. (3, Informative)

LetterRip (30937) | about a month ago | (#47336533)

"There is not a fixed number of jobs in an economy."

There is demand elasticity for labor, but it is not related to availability of labor it is related to demand for goods and services, not availability of labor. The demand for labor is essentially fixed or decreasing without some sort of driver for demand. Immigration can be a source of demand, but it isn't necessarily a source of demand. Since most immigrants send much of their income to their home country they tend to be a net reduction in demand.

The reason unemployment is correlated to immigration is that countries relax immigration requirements when there is a shortage of labor.

Re:No, they're replacing. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336555)

Assuming only immigrants receive the aforementioned jobs, it would still decrease unemployment...

Re:No, they're replacing. (5, Insightful)

melchoir55 (218842) | about a month ago | (#47336585)

But there are shortages in many areas. For instance, there is a big shortage of non-immigrant farm labor. Do you really believe that an unemployed white guy is going to pick lettuce?

If the wages available to him weren't un-livably low because he would compete with people who don't pay taxes while taking advantages of social programs...? Yes. The unemployed white guy would pick lettuce. A similar effect is strongly depressing wages in the tech sector.

Being white has nothing to do with willingness to work. Economic realities do, though.

Re:No, they're replacing. (1, Flamebait)

aardvarkjoe (156801) | about a month ago | (#47336617)

Do you really believe that an unemployed white guy is going to pick lettuce?

If the price is right, of course they will. Just because you're a lazy bastard doesn't mean everyone is.

Re:No, they're replacing. (1)

CrimsonAvenger (580665) | about a month ago | (#47336551)

The Center For Immigration Studies just released a report showing that all employment growth since 2000 has gone to immigrants, legal and illegal.

It should be noted that population growth is pretty much identical to immigration these days. Absent immigration, population growth in the USA (as in Western Europe) is negative.

Which means that, at best, the overwhelming majority of job growth should be taken by immigrants since they're the overwhelming majority of population growth.

Re:Unpopular opinion ahead (1)

Penguinisto (415985) | about a month ago | (#47336067)

...what sibling said; all you need do is to step inside an R&D or dev department of any Fortune 1000 tech company... it's like the UN in there, and good luck getting your foot in the door w/o an impressive resume or skills that they cannot otherwise import.

Re:Unpopular opinion ahead (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336215)

What's wrong with an impressive resume or skills? Sounds like something that everyone should require, immigration or not.

I'm Sorry... (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335893)

Is there a problem here? (Other than congress failing to deal with illegal immigration?)

"Immigration Reform". (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335899)

That's a euphemism for "Let the illegal immigrants (criminals) stay in the country".

Re:"Immigration Reform". (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335967)

Many illegal immigrants do commit crimes (such as identity fraud or forgery), but being an illegal immigrant is not a crime.
It's a federal civil infraction, legally less serious than minor copyright infringement.

And seriously, do you honestly believe most illegals will ever leave?
They're here. We can make them legal or maintain the status quo. Which option has better overall consequences?

Re:"Immigration Reform". (1)

daemonhunter (968210) | about a month ago | (#47336089)

And if we were honest with ourselves, a not-small number of these "illegal immigrants" should probably be labelled as refugees in search of asylum.

But that doesn't fit the narrative we're spinning.

Re:"Immigration Reform". (4, Insightful)

alexander_686 (957440) | about a month ago | (#47336709)

I am for increasing immigration and immigration reform but this remark is off base.

Most illegal immigrants are drawn to America for its economic opportunities and are not seeking asylum due to prosecution from back home (political, religious, etc.).

Re:"Immigration Reform". (4, Insightful)

Grishnakh (216268) | about a month ago | (#47336155)

>It's a federal civil infraction, legally less serious than minor copyright infringement.

No, it's a crime. Just like copyright infringement.

If the MAFIAA can continue to say that copyright infringement is a crime, then we need to do the same for all civil infractions.

Re:"Immigration Reform". (1)

Trepidity (597) | about a month ago | (#47336643)

Copyright infringement actually can be a crime though. Copyright law includes both civil-law and criminal-law elements. Infringement of the civil-law portions is a tort but not a crime. On the other hand, infringement of the criminal-law portions [cornell.edu] is a crime.

Re:"Immigration Reform". (4, Funny)

blue9steel (2758287) | about a month ago | (#47336433)

being an illegal immigrant is not a crime. It's a federal civil infraction, legally less serious than minor copyright infringement.

Whoa slow down there, I don't think it's fair to compare immigration to something as heinous as minor copyright infringement. At worst it's a lesser crime like first degree murder or human trafficking.

Re:"Immigration Reform". (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336727)

Extremely easy, no matching SS name and number, then no job equals self deportation.
If you want them here, then YOU pay for them.

R's support lower H1B caps? (3, Interesting)

mcolgin (818580) | about a month ago | (#47335921)

It's surprising to be that the R's support lower H1B caps. I've never really heard a position from the Dem's on this. I'm not exactly educated on this issue, but it seems that H1B directly compete with my ability to be a programmer; and large companies are the ones mostly vying for the talent H1B brings in. With barriers to competition being as low as a cost of a computer, why would we want increased H1B? I know they say there's not enough US workers for the tech industry.. but do they really mean, there's not enough CHEAP tech workers? What's the Dem's position on this?

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (4, Insightful)

lawnboy5-O (772026) | about a month ago | (#47335949)

Exactly - there are plenty of workers here in America that can fill that void - employers are just reluctant to pay the proper price for it.

Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (1)

MondoGordo (2277808) | about a month ago | (#47336117)

Those of you who believe that an H-1B worker is paid less than a domestic worker don't know anything about the requirements of the program. In order to be H-1B eligible a position has to pay at least the prevailing wage for the job title in the region that the job is located. .

add to that the filing costs, legal fees, and costs associated with other compliance requirements and it's MORE expensive to hire H1B workers.

The real difference is that corporations can treat them like crap and and most of them will take it because it's better than what's back home.. Being an H1B worker is a kind of indentured servitude ... quit your job and go home(or get deported) ... get let go and go home (or get deported)

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (0)

Stargoat (658863) | about a month ago | (#47336139)

Yeah, that's not really true. H-1B workers routinely get paid less than their American counterparts, and once hired, seldom get raises and never talk back.

At a big corporation with dozens of lawyers on staff or retainer, the costs of bringing on an H-1B are minimal.

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (3, Insightful)

MondoGordo (2277808) | about a month ago | (#47336541)

Minimal is not free ... and please provide a cite supporting your statement that "H-1B workers routinely get paid less than their American counterparts" In my (personal) experience I can truthfully say that I started at a salary comparable to my American peers, got regular raises and talked back a fair bit. (full disclosure ... I came down from the frozen north, not India or Mexico, so my cultural baggage was not typical and it may have influenced the way I was treated, but I never saw my Indian counterparts treated any differently.

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (4, Insightful)

Grishnakh (216268) | about a month ago | (#47336179)

> In order to be H-1B eligible a position has to pay at least the prevailing wage for the job title in the region that the job is located. .

That's not really enforced.

The big problem with H1Bs is that they're basically indentured servants (as you note), and it's very difficult for them to change jobs. So the companies can pressure them for more work, via unpaid overtime.

They need to change the system so that H1Bs can switch jobs at any time, with no penalty. If companies are really THAT desperate for workers, they'll pay the filing costs and legal fees anyway, even if there's a chance the employee will leave. If they don't want to, then they're really not that desperate for workers are they?

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (1)

MondoGordo (2277808) | about a month ago | (#47336593)

you make a good point and I agree with your solution ... I will point out that in a severely depressed economy (such as we've "enjoyed" in recent years) that sort of indenture isn't materially different from the economic indenture that every worker is stuck with.

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (4, Insightful)

NotDrWho (3543773) | about a month ago | (#47336211)

Those of you who believe that an H-1B worker is paid less than a domestic worker don't know anything about the requirements of the program. In order to be H-1B eligible a position has to pay at least the prevailing wage for the job title in the region that the job is located.

Not if the "prevailing wage" has already been artificially lowered by the presence of so many H1-B workers. An a regular American work can also do things like quit if the job sucks and ask for raises.

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (2)

MondoGordo (2277808) | about a month ago | (#47336615)

and the prevailing wage has nothing to do with economic collapse ... or is that the fault of H!B workers too ?

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (1)

Trepidity (597) | about a month ago | (#47336661)

This is why it seems it'd be much less prone to gaming if it just had a minimum threshold, e.g. companies can sponsor an H1B for salary offers above $100k, but not for offers below that. That would automatically allocate them to areas of the economy that are actually in such high demand that salaries have been driven to high levels.

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (1)

MondoGordo (2277808) | about a month ago | (#47336765)

While i see your point it's a hard one to sell... people at that level in their chosen profession are going to be so well established that emigrating to the US just isn't going to be that attractive resulting in very small numbers of H1B's ... so you lose the benefits of having the program (i.e. having a worker pool where you need a lot of people that you haven't got) . . This article http://www.motherjones.com/pol... [motherjones.com] illustrates the real abuses of the H1B system. Using it to bring offshore workers onshore to train them!!

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (5, Informative)

Darinbob (1142669) | about a month ago | (#47336487)

There may be legal requirements but that does not mean it is being followed in practice or that the spirit of the law is being blatantly broken.

So just hire a senior H-1B worker for an entry level job title. Job titles are meaningless and not standardized.

The real fiction is when companies lie and say that they can not find local qualified workers in order to justify hiring H-1B workers.

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (2)

lawnboy5-O (772026) | about a month ago | (#47336549)

I have first hand experience with it - and it's clear, as the message came from the top to drive down wages... look for foreign workers. Laws be dammed, particularly in right to work states. It's a sad but real truth to this situation of immigration. Is it everywhere - of course not - but I'd wager mostly everywhere.

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (2)

sribe (304414) | about a month ago | (#47336609)

Those of you who believe that an H-1B worker is paid less than a domestic worker don't know anything about the requirements of the program.

And you, apparently, know nothing about the ways employers game the system wrt advertised job titles vs actual duties. If you had friends who are program managers in large tech companies (I do), you'd know that the reason they are forced by upper management to hire H-1B's is most often explicitly to pay a lower wage. As in being told by the big boss "use H-1B's on this contract because we can't afford Americans."

Re:Lower cost for H1B ? In your dreams .... (2)

MondoGordo (2277808) | about a month ago | (#47336677)

And have you reported these abuses to ICE/BCIS ? Because that's illegal ... and if you don't report abuses of the system then you're part of the problem.

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (1)

hibiki_r (649814) | about a month ago | (#47336467)

So is this theoretical programmer at home, playing poker, because he doesn't like the current wages? Because if he is at a different programming job, and he switches jobs because wages went up in a different employer, there's still an opening, just in a different company.

I for one do not think there are many people refusing to get a programming job because of low wages, but your local market might be very different from mine,

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (3, Interesting)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about a month ago | (#47336057)

You interest in having employment opportunities as a programmer is served by having a large programming industry in your locality.

Anything that makes it easy for people to move to where the programming jobs are entrenches that place as being where the programmers and the programming jobs will be.

If you aren't competing with immigrants, you aren't going to be competing for any jobs, because they'll be elsewhere.

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about a month ago | (#47336311)

Anything that makes it easy for people to move to where the programming jobs are entrenches that place as being where the programmers and the programming jobs will be.

I don't buy it. Possibly for other industries sure but not for software developers. It isn't as if software development has huge capital requirements. You don't need a bunch of software firms around you to get a job developing software. The vast vast majority of developers work in firms outside the software industry. Every large retail corporation for example is going to have developers on staff, but exactly none of them will have their own aluminum smelting team. Anyone who needs software can stand up a software team just about anywhere anytime.

If we were talking about metallurgists you'd have a point but most programmers I don't think size of local industry is their main obstacle to employment nor do I think the availability of workers is a driver for the size of the industry.

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (1)

h8sg8s (559966) | about a month ago | (#47336065)

Gutierrez and his fellow Democrats seem only interested in Hispanic illegal immigration, not those H1-B legal immigrants from Asia. I suspect the roots of this are simply that Asians are a mixed bag politically while latinos tend to vote Democratic as a bloc. The one time I asked the question of my local (D) Congress critter, they gave me the deer in the headlights look in return. I don't think they have a dog in that paricular fight, but they should.

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336383)

Those voting assumptions aren't true. Hispanics have historically been a mixed bag. In the last election, 73% of Asians and 71% of Hispanics voted for Obama.

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336189)

The generic "Republican" you've been inculcated with is too simplistic. There are several flavors and flooding the US with cheap labor and products from third world hell holes is not a universal precept.

The canonical talk radio Republican, Rush Limbaugh, has no love for H1B or illegal immigration. He spent this afternoon ranting about Zuckerburg's H1B lobbying. He refers to the Republicans you have in mind, big business owned types, as "country club" and "blue bloods." These may be distinct from, but generally overlap with RINOs, yet another flavor.

Rest assured there is a contingent of Republicans that don't care for the our typical one-way "free" trade agreements, H1B, etc. Pat Buchanan would be an example of this. The so called "Tea Party" generally shares these views as well.

So maybe try to get past your training about Republicans as exclusively "big business."

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336205)

Let me spell this out for you since you still don't seem to understand Left-Right politics thing:
The oligarchy in charge introduces a bill that does 2 things:
  - raise legal immigration
  - pathway for citizenship for illegal immigrants.

Then R's complain the that the D's want to import new voters from people who came here illegally (and continuing to screw people who follow your ridiculous legal immigration procedures).
The D's then argue that the R's are xenophobic, hate immigrants, are heartless, and are hurting business by not allowing them access to the workers they need.

The truths are:
- R's are not opposed to legal immigration, and for the most part, would be happy to raise the legal caps. Often, the sensible ones at least, would support legalizing the people who are already here as long as it could be guaranteed that no more are going to come in illegally.
- D's are being realistic that it's unfeasible to send all the illegals back to wherever the hell they came from (the PR from doing anything else would be a nightmare).
- It's becomes a wedge issue which polarizes the politic base, and makes them get behind their team - either 'D' or 'R'. Nothing on the issue ever gets done that actually solves the problem, because the issue itself is far too useful to manipulate public opinion at large. Instead the issue is used as a rallying cry to gain support, get donations and votes, so they can continue to cram stuff that everyone hates down our throats - like NSA surveillance. It is no coincidence that the very next week after the Snowden revelations came out a year ago, was when the immigration bill was introduced and put on a fast track (it was used to distract the public from the fact you no longer have the 4th amendment).

Other similarly misunderstood issues which behave the same way include (but are not limited to):
- the environment
- climate change
- gay marriage
- flag burning amendments
- gun rights
- creationism
- terrorism/national security
- family values

Now, hopefully, you understand politics 101 a little better.

Re:R's support lower H1B caps? (-1, Troll)

greenwow (3635575) | about a month ago | (#47336213)

What a roundabout way to admit you don't want to admit you're a racist. Your kind doesn't want more H-1B visa holders because you hate anyone that isn't white like you. As a black developer, I see your kind every day. You assume I don't know what I'm doing because so many other people my race only have their job because of their race. It hurts when your kind does that to me. Now you want competent developers to starve in their on countries and not be able to support their families. If you were a good person, you would do what you could to get them here and working. Instead, as you admit, you want them to starve.

A whole new set of problems? (5, Insightful)

TheNastyInThePasty (2382648) | about a month ago | (#47335927)

Next year may create an entirely new set of problems for tech.

Problems like how to treat their employees like human beings rather than disposable trash?

You Just Wait (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336277)

You bet those greedy US-government-buying corporations need more and more cheap labor. And future batches (years) of H1B people are being carved more carefully to completely assimilate American jobs. In the beginning they spoke more Indian-broken-English and were difficult to understand, the latest batches are focusing more on the language AND culture to assimilate. They are sending back work to home as well to actually be more productive than Americans can be with a single life to spend. We're doomed.

This is great news ! (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335937)

Now maybe the IT jobs will pay a little better and people over 40 can get a IT job.

Just say no to a cheaper, but less productive H-B1 visa holder

Re:This is great news ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336431)

Seriously. What is with the droves of completely useless QA h1bs in the Bay Area? They're so unproductive, basically just bodies. I understand employers don't want to pay a fair wage for this job but, my god. There must be an alternative...

eat poop & don't die? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335941)

must be a typo http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fda-grapples-oversight-fecal-transplants-154448664--finance.html hot butt turds for us? no stem cells for desert, or for any reason, despite they heal us?? mankind of unkind is an understatement.. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stem+cell+therapy thanks again moms

mynuts won; nitrogenous waste untopical (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336113)

no accounting for bad tastes

Fighting rearguard actions against change (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335955)

Is no way to go through life; it's what big labor has been doing for the past 30 years, and what most of the GOP has doing on social issues for at least as long.

Besides, the US can use a population infusion from abroad just to keep up with (or rather, not fall as far behind) China, India, and Brazil. Let's make these programs better, not try to curb them.

Re:Fighting rearguard actions against change (4, Insightful)

Grishnakh (216268) | about a month ago | (#47336479)

Why does the US need a population infusion? All the new manufacturing in the US is heavily automated; in fact, the big fear now is that increasing automation is going to render many lower and middle-class jobs obsolete. We aren't going to need taxi drivers pretty soon, for instance, because of driver-less cars. The economy's in the shitter (except for the 1%), and good-paying jobs are drying up. So why again do we need a population infusion?

Are you advocating that we start treating workers the way they do in China, where they live in company barracks as virtual slaves and there's no minimum wage? This seems to be what the open-borders advocates are advocating these days: bringing in a giant number of easily-exploited laborers so that corporate profits can be increased.

I thought the Republicans were supposed to be the ones in the pockets of Big Business, but these days it seems that the Democrats are the ones more guilty of that.

Re:Fighting rearguard actions against change (2)

kick6 (1081615) | about a month ago | (#47336577)

Why does the US need a population infusion?

There's actual a valid answer to this, I'm assuming, rhetorical question: the "locals" are not breeding at a high enough rate to propogate the pyramid schemes that are hyperconsumerism and social security. Well, valid, for some corporatist/politcal definition of valid.

Re:Fighting rearguard actions against change (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336613)

I thought the Republicans were supposed to be the ones in the pockets of Big Business

Both parties are. It just depends on which big business you are talking about.

Read this book completely. You will find our policies on many things do exactly the opposite of what we want.
http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/

Putting job restrictions in always ends up with less jobs. Always.
http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap08p1.html
http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap11p1.html
http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap12p1.html
http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap14p1.html

Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335963)

and telling talented people that can help businesses here to go fuck themselves and starve rather than allowing them to work for a living embodies everything their kind represents. They're racists so they don't like H1-B visa holders like the rest of the hateful morons in this country that don't support the program. Most of my cowokers are lazy racists so they constantly whine about the competition. In their world because they were born white and rich, it is their duty to make sure that brown people starve and die. That is the Republican way. That is why anyone that isn't racist supports raising the limits.

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (3, Insightful)

sycodon (149926) | about a month ago | (#47336025)

I think I probably speak for many on Slashdot when I say, Fuck You

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (0)

sycodon (149926) | about a month ago | (#47336035)

And all your other astroturfed AC comments.

Wow (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336081)

I was going to disagree with you, but then I read the AC parent comment.

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (1)

h8sg8s (559966) | about a month ago | (#47336101)

Are Democrats trying to raise the H1-B limits? How? Seems to me they're much more interested in out Southern Border.

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336273)

Bingo. H1B is the hostage the Ds hold trying to force the Rs to pass whatever euphemism they're using at the moment for amnesty. Flooding the US with millions of imported Democrats is job #1 regardless of the consequences for the working class and its wage floor.

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (4, Insightful)

sjames (1099) | about a month ago | (#47336103)

Nonsense. I support eliminating the H1-B program entirely. Poof, gone. I also support streamlining the legal immigration program. Supporters of H1-B don't mind letting "them" do the dirty work, but god forbid "that kind" should move in!

So who is the racist, the guy that welcomes actual immigrants or the guy who wants to churn 'em and burn 'em?

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (2)

Grishnakh (216268) | about a month ago | (#47336503)

Very good point. The H1-B program is great for employers, because they can bring in skilled workers and then pressure them to work themselves to the bone because they can't easily change jobs, making them indentured servants.

Somehow, you never hear the Democrats talk about this or work to change it.

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (1)

DarkOx (621550) | about a month ago | (#47336531)

^^THIS^^ but to take it a step farther the real solution to the illegal immigration problem is to take away the incentive.

We should do away with all the quotas and pretty much all the requirements. Lets let people show up tell us where they plan to live; agree to drop the federal government a post card with their new address when they relocate and after two years without any felony convictions call them citizens.

Lets let anyone already here step forward and start their two year probation period too.

After we do that we could then pretty safely conclude anyone who still remains here or enters illegally really is the sort of ne'er do well that should deported and permanently denied re-entry.

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336145)

You are a fucking idiot. You want to come here, like my grandparents and everyone before them:
1. Go to your home country
2. Go to your embassy
3. Fill out a form
4. If you are smart or rich, you can come
5. When you get here, we will make sure you have no communicative diseases (i.e. Ellis Island)
6. If you are clean, welcome, you are free to compete
7. If you are sick, GOTO #1

That is basic immigration.

Here is H1 logic:
1. Company needs to hire somebody
2. Oops, there is no one with that skill
3. Unfortunately, here is where a government program may help... They contact them with the appropriate skill needed. If there is a an American with that skill, anywhere in the FUCKING country. You don't get an H1. For example, asteroid mining experience. I am fine with an H1. Therefore, go look at the list of people who have applied at their local embassy, but haven't gotten here yet.

All in all, for everyone who disagrees with this FUCK YOU!

Re:Republicans always want to hurt the economy... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336237)

Here is H1 logic:
1. Company needs to hire somebody
2. Oops, there is no one with that skill
3. Unfortunately, here is where a government program may help... They contact them with the appropriate skill needed. If there is a an American with that skill, anywhere in the FUCKING country. You don't get an H1. For example, asteroid mining experience. I am fine with an H1. Therefore, go look at the list of people who have applied at their local embassy, but haven't gotten here yet.

All in all, for everyone who disagrees with this FUCK YOU!

Wrong, H1 logic is:
1. Company needs to hire somebody
2. Company creates job description with impossible to meet or ultra specific skills ("10 years Windows Server 2012 experience")
3. Oops, there is no one with that skill (because nobody can possibly meet your 'requirement')
4. Company now can go outside the country to bring in an H1 at whatever pay they can negotiate, generally far cheaper than they could get someone in the US with comparable skills for. The fact that the H1 doesn't fit the 'requirements' either doesn't matter since they've already determined there are no 'qualified' US people.

Immigration reform (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335977)

So a Democrat is so concerned about the possibility that the Republicans won't take over the Senate, or won't get into the White House; that he, out of the goodness of his heart, tells the Republicans what they need to do to win.

Reminds me of the phrase, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts".

To have someone in the Senate that sees the H1B program as replacing the American workers, would be a refreshing change from the current leadership that looks for every opportunity to raise the H1B cap, for their K street buddies.

Re:Immigration reform (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336309)

As I think back to various competitions and games, there have only been two scenarios where someone says a variant of "If you don't do this, you have no chance of winning." One case is where the opponent really has no chance of winning anyway, but following the advice will make it a more exciting match. The other is a bluff, a complete blatant falsehood trying to pass off the worst advice as something worth following and making a patronizing attempt to look like a concerned mentor instead of an actual opponent.

A blind rabbit would not be fooled by Gutierrez's advice, but it does tell you something about the congressional Republicans that they had to discuss the idea.

Government hamstringing US business again (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335983)

H-1Bs do not sabotage, unlike disgruntled Americans, nor are they security threats.

Instead they are the ones in a company that actually do work. There is a reason why Tata and Infosys do well... They make companies go and work around uneducated natives.

There is a reason for the H-1B demand, and it is not money, it is skill.

Re:Government hamstringing US business again (1)

NotDrWho (3543773) | about a month ago | (#47336109)

There is a reason for the H-1B demand, and it is not money, it is skill.

No, there are plenty of skilled workers in the U.S. They just won't work for slave wages and can't be treated like disposable indentured servants or threatened with deportation when they ask for a raise.

Re:Government hamstringing US business again (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336119)

H-1Bs do not sabotage, unlike disgruntled Americans, nor are they security threats.

No, not sabotage. It just falls apart under the flood of inadequate skills.

Re:Government hamstringing US business again (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336123)

Infosys has a pretty bad reputation where I work...

Then again... H1-Bs at outsourcing giants are just there to triple everyone's workload with pointless processes until the only viable workforce to service their clusterfuck is offshore.

Hey? you know who has offshore workers?

Infosys, the same fuckers that screwed up your company in the first place!

H-1Bs sabotage by incompetence (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a month ago | (#47336149)

Have you deal with the call centers some time the same people are the H-1B's

h1bs because they dont sponsor for greencards... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47335999)

google cognizant. Lots of forum posts by their employees complaining that the company won't sponsor for a greencard. When you don't sponsor they have to leave. Company I work for refused to spend money on an h1b to continue sponsoring him , but brought in contractors who were L-2 visa holders at an india company instead. they don't want greencard holders. sponsorship costs a little money and once they get a greencard they can get market wages and will quit.

look if companies have been h1b dependent for this long its because the ones they sponsor are not getting converted to greencard and/or quitting when they do because the job sucked. they just want lower wages with worse terms. its so obvious.

rather odd that a guy from Iowa is the one guy seeing it. But go Grassley. If you just give them all greencards to start with.. then you will see the real demand for immigrant workers. cause they can quit.

Too Bad They Both Love E-Verify (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336023)

My personal problem with all this talk of immigration reform has been the consistent desire by both parties to making the expansion of E-Verify [wikipedia.org] a requirement of any bill. To sum it up, E-Verify is a way for the executive branch to block the employment of anyone that the database flags. Or more colloquially, you have to get permission from the president in order to feed and house your family.

One of the biggest problems with e-verify is the false negative rate. Even if you assume absolutely no malice, [washingtonpost.com] you can easily end up on the "no work list" by accident. [cato.org] Note, that's not a false positive - giving people permission to work when they aren't permitted, it is stopping people who have done nothing wrong in the slightest.

Requiring government permission to work is absolutely unacceptable policy in a free society. E-verify is a case where the cure is worse than the disease.

Re:Too Bad They Both Love E-Verify (1)

greenwow (3635575) | about a month ago | (#47336245)

> permission from the president i

So what. Did you forget who the President it? If the Democrats ever lose the White House, and it doesn't look like any sensible person will ever vote Republican for President again in our lifetimes, then you would have a complaint. As it stands now, no good person would be excluded by this required permission so this is a good thing.

Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (5, Interesting)

gurps_npc (621217) | about a month ago | (#47336037)

Basically the argument is thus:

Employers: There is a shortage of good tech qorkers. Give us more H1 visas so we can get the work done.

Employees: These darn foreigners are taking our jobs! They work for much less than us people born in Amerika! (studys show about $13,000 less http://www.workpermit.com/news... [workpermit.com] )

The simplest solution is of course to offer unlimited H1 Visas - at the cost of $15,000, paid by the corporation, before the employee is hired.. (with inflation adjustments so this doesn't become abused).

This solves all real claims of not enough tech workers, it reduces the US budget, and gets rid of the financial incentive to refuse to hire perfectly good American tech workers.

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336061)

I think your solution leaves out that many of the H1-B visa applicants would be willing to work for less than the $13,000 gap, resulting in lower salaries all around, the same amount of displaced workers, and more exploitation. When stated out load, it actually sounds like an ideal solution for corporate america -- never mind.

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (1)

Grishnakh (216268) | about a month ago | (#47336557)

>I think your solution leaves out that many of the H1-B visa applicants would be willing to work for less than the $13,000 gap, resulting in lower salaries all around, the same amount of displaced workers, and more exploitation.

I'm not so sure about that.

Remember, once one of these people comes over and works for $13k less for a few months, he's now in the country, so if some other country offers him $13k more, then he can just quit and go to work for the new place. Yes, the pool of workers being larger would have a downward trend on wages maybe, but everyone would be able to get market rate, and immigrants wouldn't be stuck working for the low-paying company under threat of deportation. Also, if the hiring company has to pay $15K to the government in immigration fees just to bring the foreign worker here, then it would be pretty stupid of them to pay significantly less than the market rate, since the worker could quit and go to the competition at any time.

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336077)

Good call though it needs to annual amount. Lets have an H1 Visa tax!

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336265)

Some of the biggest companies using H1 don't pay any taxes as it is now, what would that change?

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (1)

peon_a-z,A-Z,0-9$_+! (2743031) | about a month ago | (#47336105)

Is the $15,000 fee paid yearly?

If its not, your outlined plan would seem to give even more incentive to not hire Americans. Just pay the fee once, and then for the next N years keep the immigrant non-citizen workers at a lower wage.

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (1)

Grishnakh (216268) | about a month ago | (#47336563)

No, if you make it so that the H1 visa holder change jobs and at any time after the initial $15k fee, then it would be utterly stupid for the initial company to underpay him.

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336135)

> This solves all real claims of not enough tech workers, it reduces the US budget, and gets rid of the financial incentive to refuse to hire perfectly good American tech workers.

However, it does not address the primary abuse of the H1B visa as the first step of off-shoring. [epi.org] They bring them in on the H1B, train them up and then send them home. In 2012, the top 10 H1B employers were all off-shoring companies. That changed a little bit in 2013, [myvisajobs.com] but by total number of visas it got worse.

Plus, your numbers are from 2005.

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (1)

gurps_npc (621217) | about a month ago | (#47336621)

Off shoring is a separate problem, not really relevant to this discussion. The plan you mentioned works, but is not in any way necessary. If we kill the H1 Visa program, it won't stop off shoring at all, it will just cost a minute amount more to send Americans over to the other country to train their replacements.

More importantly, there are very good argument in favor of off-shoring, from an ethical stand point, another by a capitalistic standpoint, and another from a political standpoint.

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336137)

Just make sure that is $15000 per year.

also forced OT pay for H1's (1)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about a month ago | (#47336183)

also forced OT pay for H1's As getting 60-80 hours an week work out them of with the idea if they get fired they get kicked out of the USA makes them better / cheaper then us workers.

or what about cost of $15,000 + they must be payed at least 100K + inflation / cost of living adjustments an year.

Re:Simplest way to deal with H1 Visas (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336559)

There's a large lawyer fee that is incurred by hiring an H1B worker, and smaller start-ups don't even know what an immigration lawyer is. On the other hand you can lock them in at a low salary with 1-2% raise yearly, and they'll never move jobs because they have to stay for 5-7 years to get a green card. I know about all this crap because I was on an h1b myself and in the end got my GC via (legitimate, real, loving) marriage after trying through work for 5 years.

If you want work as an american and you're in the SF bay area and can't get a job, you're just a bad worker (or maybe old, which sucks since there is definitely age discrimination).

The US (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336063)

The only country where illegal immigrants get to complain about the immigration policies.

How about instead of less, we shoot for none. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336181)

http://thecarnivoreproject.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345295c269e201a5116584a7970c-800wi

I blame DiFi (2)

bhlowe (1803290) | about a month ago | (#47336191)

Dianne Feinstein should be charged with criminal negligence for writing the law that has been encouraging unaccompanied minors to travel to the US to cut in front of people who are in line for H1B's.

Great! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336199)

We have too many people in this country. Time to kick some out.

Tech Companies are just plain greedy. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336371)

I think H1-B visa's should be reduced to zero, and the only way one can gain US citizenship is through marriage to another US citizen, have a parent who is already a US citizen, or have performed service for the US military in another country. I think the biggest problem in the US today, is that there's not enough investment in employees from employers these days. They just want to continue to make record profits with short term bottom lines.

I don't get why.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336413)

Was going to rant, but basically it comes down to if Immigration reform is OK, then there needs to be welfare reform. Also the IRS should probably stop focusing on political groups and losing emails and do their job when it comes to illegals. Our country might have been built on immigration, and have a history of providing racially biased welfare when it concerned immigrants. But there was incentive for massive immigration then. We had a workforce to fill, and an economy to explode. Now immigration is just oursourcing American jobs to people for a cheaper price, where there is the workforce to supply the work.

H1-B out of date and no longer needed (1)

cyberspittle (519754) | about a month ago | (#47336475)

There really is no need to import foreign work anymore as most of it can be done in their own country. India is a good example, where employees abroad are able to work remotely. Most companies know and do this due to VPN to sponsor company in US. That is why Virtual Desktops is a growth industry! As an added bonus, they can be paid in native wages for their local country. Why would companies bring employees to the US, except if a physical presence is needed, i.e. farm work., etc.?

Suckers (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47336757)

I'm moving in two months to the US because I got a job wich pays about 200k a year. When I got the job, my wife started looking as well and got another job for about 170k a year. Me L1, her H1b.

I'm tired of reading here in slashdot people complain that they cannot get a job, or that 100k jobs don't exist, and than H1b workers go to the US to earn little money for jobs you wouldn't accept. My opinion is that if a foreign worker, who has to leave their place behind, has to learn a new language and work entirely on a foreign language and a whole lot of other things against their odds is taking your jobs away, you suck, there is no other explanation, sorry.

I'm probably going to be moderated troll, but you have to face the facts people, you have it too easy. I work on a company where we struggle recruiting, we search for the best candidates around the world, including the US, obviously. The candidates from the US are just not there, they don't exist. H1b candidates have hiring windows of just a couple of months a year, and still then, the rest of the year, when the only that we would be able to hire is people from the US, we don't get any. So we struggle to hire people to work in other countries until the H1b is ready, then they are transfered, we pay relocation to the first country and then another one to the US. This is fucking expensive, in your dreams a H1b is cheap.

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