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Transportation Earth

Toyota Names Upcoming Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car 194

Posted by samzenpus from the a-car-by-any-other-name-would-drive-as-clean dept.
An anonymous reader writes Toyota has announced the name of its new hydrogen-powered car: Mirai, which means "future" in Japanese. Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda said: "Today, we are at a turning point in automotive history. A turning point where a four-door sedan can travel 300 miles on a single tank of hydrogen, can be refueled in under five minutes and emit only water vapor."
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Toyota Names Upcoming Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car More

Toyota Names Upcoming Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car

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  • How do I refill it? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by CastrTroy ( 595695 )
    This car is going to have a major problem with most people because there are no stations that carry hydrogen to refill it. It's hard enough for the Tesla to gain traction because you can't refill it in as many places as a standard gasoline powered car, but at least in that case you can charge it every night at home, and it has enough range to last you for the day. You won't be able to generate or store hydrogen at your house. And until there's enough hydrogen stations across the city, it will be very inconv

    • You won't be able to generate or store hydrogen at your house.

      Says who? I've got a couple of test tubes, water and electricity... :-)

    • Re:How do I refill it? (Score:4, Informative)

      by DigitAl56K ( 805623 ) on Monday November 17, 2014 @05:28PM (#48405717)

      To put this in perspective, California is aiming for 100 fueling stations by 2024 and as of May this year only 9 actually existed.

      "California, Oregon, New York and five other states pledged to put more than three million zero-emission vehicles on their roads by 2025"

      http://www.usatoday.com/story/... [usatoday.com]
      http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb... [pbs.org]

      • this is happening quite well. I have an electric car, and I'm able to go to the coast and get a nice charge. If I had a damn chademo adapter I can get my car up to what is needed in less than 30 minutes. 30 minutes is absolutely perfect for a family to checkout the local restaurant, shop or whatever. It is a great magic marketing number and that means that you are a captured audience.. that alone should be enough for business to do the same thing and put high speed chargers in their place of business.

    • This car is going to have a major problem with most people because there are no stations that carry hydrogen to refill it.

      That is a temporary problem. A gas station already has water and electricity, and could quickly install a hydrogen tank and meter, if the customer base is there.

      You won't be able to generate or store hydrogen at your house.

      Why not?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rei ( 128717 )

        And make the process even less efficient? The hydrogen fuel cycle is as-is about 1/3rd as efficient as simply using electricity to power BEVs directly - and that's with efficient industrial H2 electrolysis. Trying to scale down dand "localize" H2 just makes it even worse.

        And honestly, given how much hydrogen - completely unlike gasoline - likes to detonate rather than just burn, no, I'm not too fond of large numbers of potential points of failure. Yes, gasoline burns with a tremendous amount of energy. So d

      • Hydrogen is a stupid idea.

        Use CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) and just forget this nutty hydrogen idea. Getting Hydrogen from water and electricity is wildly inefficient and thus extremely expensive. It's also not a very good motor fuel because it takes some pretty major modifications to existing motors.

        Do you know where we get most of our industrial hydrogen gas? From Natural Gas. Guess what? We already have a distribution infrastructure in most of the States for Natural Gas. We should just cut to the c

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by amiga3D ( 567632 )

        Man don't you get it? Hydrogen is extremely dangerous. If you've ever seen the stupid things people do with gas and how many die from it then you'd realize that hydrogen will be several orders of magnitude worse.

    • Compressed gas? Cryo-slush (unlikely!)? Metal Hydrides?

      And, of course, hydrogen - like batteries - is just a storage mechanism. The power still need to be generated somewhere, and there are the typical transitional losses.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sycodon ( 149926 )

        I didn't see costs per mile either (for fuel).

      • Compressed gas? Cryo-slush (unlikely!)? Metal Hydrides?

        I'd pay a nickel [wikipedia.org] for that last one.

    • Obviously as more companies build Hydrogen cars, more refueling stations will be built. With a real 300 mile range you don't need them ofter to make long cross country trips possible.

      If you think about it it's easier to convert existing stations to hydrogen refueling than it is to convert them to something like a supercharger station, so buildout of hydrogen stations will happen more rapidly as the percentage of hydrogen vehicles increases.

      • Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) is what we should use. We have a LOT of it in the States, it's currently cheap, and we already have distribution infrastructure for it. Industrial sources of hydrogen come from Natural Gas anyway... Oh, and gas stations that sell CNG already exist.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AaronW ( 33736 )

        Unlike EVs a lot more public refueling stations are required. For example with my Tesla I do most of my charging at home overnight where it takes me 5 seconds to plug in and 5 seconds to unplug. The rapid charging stations and battery swap stations (when they're built) are only needed for long trips. For HFC vehicles a lot more filling stations will be required since most people will not be filling up at home or work. Many companies (though not mine) offer EV charging stations to their employees so they can

    • I think there will be a killer app needed in the form of a home electrolysis machine to be able to make enough hydrogen at night to top off your car for general commuting. Without that there is a huge barrier as you point out.

      EV's today solve the commuter problem by the fact that they can be readily recharged at home. The infrastructure of chargers on the road for longer trips is still spotty and "adventuresome". Hydrogen fuel cell cars face that problem in the local neighborhood as well. If you have to

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AaronW ( 33736 )

        The problem is that it takes a horrendous amount of electricity for electrolysis compared to steam reforming and it is far far more expensive, that's even with the catalysts available. 95% of all commercial hydrogen produced uses steam reformed natural gas. The cost difference is very significant.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Hadlock ( 143607 )

      Probably contract with Tesla to put a hydrogen station next door to their electric station, since there's already an all-electric network from coast to coast. The "green infrastructure" is already there, now Toyota can leverage off of that

  • Not For Me (Score:2, Insightful)

    by DumbSwede ( 521261 )

    Let’s see, my Volkswagen Passat, which I paid 18K, for will go 450 miles and refuel just about anywhere.

    Green is nice and all, but why even bother rolling something out that is obviously not ready for primetime? At least Hybrids can refuel anywhere even if over priced. I’ll go all electric or hybrid once the economics are in place, and I have no problem with early adopters, but getting one of these seems to be for masochists only at this point. Give me a range of 500+ miles, or the ability to

    • Re:Not For Me (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Monday November 17, 2014 @05:40PM (#48405835)

      Remember, Hydrogen is really just a battery when you think about it

      How many batteries can be completely recharged in under five minutes?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rei ( 128717 )

        Only very high pressure hydrogen stations can pull off such rapid fills, more common lower pressure stations can take several times longer.

        And as much as I don't want a large tank of an extremely combustible gas (yes, it's far, far more combustible than gasoline, see above), near me, I really don't want the same amount of hydrogen at extreme pressures.

        And it's so pointless. The hydrogen fuel cycle is so wasteful that it defeats its purpose right off the bat.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) *

        How many batteries can be completely recharged in under five minutes?

        How many people really care?

        If your battery can take you 300 miles before needing a 30-40 minute charge, that would be absolutely fine for most people. Maybe a slight delay compared to what they would normally do (a five minute stop, not very good from a safety point of view...) but that is offset by the advantage of being able to charge at home or at work, meaning time saved not going to the petrol station once or twice a week. They money saved on fuel would also pay for a rental if they were really desper

    • when the first ICE cars rolled off the assembly line?

      It is truly remarkable how short-sighted people on a tech site can be.

      • I may be shortsighted, or... there is no advantage to this car over conventional electric or hybrid at this point and will likely stay that way. Sure internal combustion engines (ICE) took off, but how many other inventions since then haven’t? Are you still riding around in your Stanley Steamer?

        The 5 minute fueling is no advantage if there is nowhere to refill. Hydrogen is notoriously hard to contain, should these become common no doubt we will start to here stories about hydrogen leaks and is unl

        • conventional electric

          Now that we're discussing hydrogen, electric is conventional I think that shows where this is heading.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by bws111 ( 1216812 )

        Standard Oil was already huge when ICE cars started being made. Most of the infrastructure for refining and delivering gas was already in place.

        • Standard Oil was already huge when ICE cars started being made. Most of the infrastructure for refining and delivering gas was already in place.

          Indeed. Remember back before the IC engine was huge, gas/oil lamps and heating systems were around and popular because electricity wasn't.
          Browsing wikipedia [wikipedia.org], 1885-1888 seems to be when the first 'practical' IC engine powered automobiles appeared. The model T, 1908, marked the beginning of automobiles entering the homes of the middle class and lower.

          Meanwhile, only 70% of households were electrified by 1930. [wikipedia.org] Homes not yet electrified would typically be using a gas like propane or liquid like kerosene for

    • That is why certain groups like fuel cells so much more than electric cars. You can still sell the nice hydrocarbon fuel stacks to get the hydrogen. And even though you generate carbon dioxide from reforming natural gas to hydrogen it is also significantly less efficient than just burning the gas directly. In fact a CNG car would probably use less gas per mile than these fuel cell cars will ultimately end up using.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jcdr ( 178250 )

      In most cases hydrogen is generated from natural gas, generating, you guessed it, carbon dioxide in the process.

      Hydrogen have the advantage to be generated by a lot of chemical process. Probably the simplest one is the water electrolysis that only require water and electricity. Of course some others process are not so clean, but at least there is large choices and so range of possible improvement, unlike fossil petrol.

      • There is also thermochemical cracking [wikipedia.org] which could solve two problems at once - use waste heat from a high-temperature nuclear reactor to make hydrogen as well as conventional baseload generation.

        Or, just use concentrating solar - some of these projects reach the temperatures necessary as well.

    • "Hydrogen is really just a battery"

      Hydrogen is really just a battery in exactly the same way that gasoline and coal are really just batteries.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ichijo ( 607641 )

      Give me a range of 500+ miles, or the ability to fuel at home

      Your Passat has neither.

      How often do you need to drive for hours at a time? The answer to that will determine whether an alternative fuel vehicle is practical for you.

    • > Remember, Hydrogen is really just a battery when you think about it, the power still has to come from somewhere else like coal (though ideally wind or solar). In most cases hydrogen is generated from natural gas, generating, you guessed it, carbon dioxide in the process.

      The great thing about the Hydrogen economy, is you can increase the amount of renewable on the grid, and convert excess to hydrogen, when you have an excess, like in the middle of the day and the middle of the night.

  • Hydrogen is a nice alternative (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Trachman ( 3499895 ) on Monday November 17, 2014 @05:43PM (#48405855) Journal

    Toyota is currently considered as one of the best companies and great strategic planners. Pioneers too. I did follow the development of this innovation and it is worth saying that Toyota has invested billions of dollars into this project. The same way they have invested in gas-hybrid prototype currently known as Prius.

    There will be Hydrogen energy skeptics, the same way there was a reasonable skepticism towards electric cars. Most of the skeptic comments coming from the opponents of electric cars are actually, valid. Such as electric cars are being charged with the coal burned electricity.

    The key risk will be mentioned that Hydrogen is extremely volatile and combustive. BMW has developed hydrogen powered cars long time ago. Toyota has actually solved the issue by developing fuel cell. Fuel cell basically is a sponge of certain minerals which chemically absorbs hydrogen so that it is not that volatile.

    I am taking a risk and predicting that in ten and fifteen years there will be marketed systems that will convert photovoltaic energy to hydrogen, which will be used to fill Hydrogen cars.

    Do not listen too seriously to those who say that there will be no hydrogen refill stations. A decade ago there were not too many electricity recharge stations (though you could recharge your car home). I am sure Toyota has a plan in their sleeve to be in the hydrogen business.

    While former criticism for current EV cars was valid, there will be valid complains for Hydrogen cars, let's not forget the key thing: competition is actually a good thing. Embrace it, because even if you are driving a gas car, hydrogen cars will keep the price of gas down due to lower oil demand. Win-win.

    • > There will be Hydrogen energy skeptics, the same way there was a reasonable skepticism towards electric cars. Most of the skeptic comments coming from the opponents of electric cars are actually, valid. Such as electric cars are being charged with the coal burned electricity.

      Mind you, I want to see this succeed (although I think it's a long shot) but I feel duty bound to point out, hydrogen is usually created with electricity, making it highly likely that hydrogen cars will also be fueled via coal burn

    • Actually, most all of the big car makers have been working on hydrogen fuel cell cars for over a decade now [wikipedia.org]. The problem isn't the tech, although the cost of the technology is an issue. In fact GM has been putting them in the real world since 2007 [caranddriver.com], I think. I doubt they are alone, as that is with minimal searching and knowledge in the area. Do not think Toyota is first or ahead simply because they have a good PR department.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by amorsen ( 7485 )

      Fuel cell basically is a sponge of certain minerals which chemically absorbs hydrogen so that it is not that volatile.

      No. A fuel cell is a device which turns chemical energy into electrical energy without having to turn it into heat first.

      • No. A fuel cell is a device which turns chemical energy into electrical energy without having to turn it into heat first.

        Though they do tend to generate quite a bit of heat as a byproduct.

        Honestly, they have fuel cells that work with natural gas all the way up to alcohol. While they don't have the energy by mass that hydrogen does, by the time you add in the mass of the storage systems and account for the necessary volumes(or energy needed to compress it to the point of liquification), fuels with some carbon in them often achieve higher practical densities, and it's not like we can't generate NG and alcohols fairly readily.

        H

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ogive17 ( 691899 )
      Honda has had the Clarity out for about a decade. Honda already has worked on a system to use sunlight to help produce hydrogen to fill up a fuel cell vehicle.

      Basically you're not taking a risk by saying such systems will exist in 10 years.

    • One of the primary issues I see is separation costs and poor energy efficiency. With gas (petrol on the other side of the pond), energy is expended to boil a bunch of oil and filter out the primarily six-seven-eight carbon molecules at about 350 kJ/kg, which is easily stored and distributed in liquid form to yield about 42,000 kJ/kg upon combustion. That's a nice 100:1 energy produced/separation energy without any need for compression. Obviously more energy is needed to procure the oil, pre-process it, e

  • oh, I thought it was Japanese for "Hindenberg" (Score:4, Funny)

    by swschrad ( 312009 ) on Monday November 17, 2014 @05:47PM (#48405895) Homepage Journal

    seriously, folks, I gotta tell ya, it drives 300 miles, period. there is one fuelling station in the country, out in the toolies, because of zoning rules. 400 miles from the dealer.

    • seriously, folks, I gotta tell ya, it drives 300 miles, period. there is one fuelling station in the country

      So you're really saying unless you want to run out of fuel it has a maximum range of 150 miles from a fixed location. Doesn't seem to threaten Tesla too much...

    • there is one fuelling station in the country, out in the toolies [...]

      Yeah, it's not like there aren't any Toyota dealerships in America where they could put in some kind of fueling station...

      I suppose this is an advantage to having a dealership network...

  • Hm, Prius="Before" vs Mirai="Future" (Score:3)

    by Khopesh ( 112447 ) on Monday November 17, 2014 @06:00PM (#48406017) Homepage Journal

    "Prius" is Latin for "before" [wikipedia.org] while "Mirai" is Japanese for "Future." Kind of sets a bold statement; an old language for hybrids and a new language (Japanese roughly dates back to the 8th century [wikipedia.org]) for the purported future of cars ... which still has yet to be determined.

    Contrast this with Nissan, another Japanese automobile manufacturer, which has invested so deeply into battery technology [hybridcars.com] that if the Leaf [wikipedia.org] were to fail, it's quite likely that they'd become a battery company. (A while back, I read (or watched?) a really compelling article/documentary on Nissan's battery research. It concluded that Nissan was gambling so heavily on both its own future with the Leaf and the future of automobiles as being electric that the company would likely stop making cars if the Leaf were to fail. Sorry I can't find a good citation to that.)

    The presumption that Hydrogen Fuel Cells will be the "next" car fuel (after either gas or after electric) is still quite a strong one. I've seen it painted (iirc, by the documentary Who Killed the Electric Car? [wikipedia.org]) as something the oil companies latched onto because it competed with electric cars (which are ready now) and because hydrogen fuel cell cars are still quite a distant future prospect.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mjwx ( 966435 )

      Contrast this with Nissan, another Japanese automobile manufacturer, which has invested so deeply into battery technology [hybridcars.com] that if the Leaf [wikipedia.org] were to fail, it's quite likely that they'd become a battery company. (A while back, I read (or watched?) a really compelling article/documentary on Nissan's battery research. It concluded that Nissan was gambling so heavily on both its own future with the Leaf and the future of automobiles as being electric that the company would likely stop making cars if the Leaf were to fail. Sorry I can't find a good citation to that.)

      You cant find a citation because it isn't true.

      Nissan sells 5,000,000 cars per year and made US$3 billion in profit last FY. Nissan makes good cars that sell well, pretty much the antithesis of American car corporations, so they're quite safe.

      The Leaf has sold 100,000 units worldwide since 2010... which is actually 45% of the total EV's sold in that time.

      Besides, I wouldn't read too much into names. Nissan made a car called the Skyline that was pretty low to the ground and the Pulsar doesn't emit r

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