Professor: Young People Are "Lost Generation" Who Can No Longer Fix Gadgets 840
antdude points out this story about one of the problems with our ever increasingly disposable world. "Young people in Britain have become a lost generation who can no longer mend gadgets and appliances because they have grown up in a disposable world, the professor giving this year's Royal Institution Christmas lectures has warned. Danielle George, Professor of Radio Frequency Engineering, at the University of Manchester, claims that the under 40s expect everything to 'just work' and have no idea what to do when things go wrong. Unlike previous generations who would ‘make do and mend’ now young people will just chuck out their faulty appliances and buy new ones. But Prof George claims that many broken or outdated gadgets could be fixed or repurposed with only a brief knowledge of engineering and electronics. "
Dupe (Score:5, Insightful)
This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation, who cried about the same thing.
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Informative)
wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit, starting at age 10 in my case. Guys [1] usually fell into two categories, the electrical or mechanical.
[1] sorry wrong headed thinking about women meant females left out, though sewing and cooking are good skills everyone should have
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Insightful)
That was a time when you could actually easily fix something. Take cars, for example. Fixing a modern car aside from trivial cases is not easy.
Hell, even exchanging a broken lightbulb can pose major problems.
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And the reason is ... because the stuff used to be BUILT by people. If a guy on the assembly line had to be able to get his hands onto a bolt to install it then someone replacing it would also be able to reach it.
Once we switched to robots for manufacturing it became a lot more difficult. A robot can reach where a person cannot.
Which means you save a lot of "wasted" space and materials ... but you have to take apart X, Y and Z to be able to read the headlight.
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Interesting)
There was an amusing scene in Mythbusters about this, where Jamie goes to replace the battery in a Dodge Stratus they purchased and has to take one of the wheels off in order to access it. Needless to say he was unimpressed; I think his quote was "You see, what happened here is some idiot designed this in a computer and didn't think."
Even better was the fact that a friend of ours had recently purchased the same car, something we mocked him incessantly about, and this was just extra fuel for the fire. :)
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Funny)
Jamie goes to replace the battery in a Dodge Stratus they purchased and has to take one of the wheels off in order to access it
Not quite that bad, but I have an older Chevy Lumina and in order to replace the battery you have to
- remove a front-end crossbar, the bolts of which have about a 50% chance of being welded to the chassis with rust
- remove the windshield washer reservoir, which involves removing the pump that's attached at the bottom of the container (without spilling too much fluid on the battery)
- remove a bracket from overtop the batter which is connected to the chassis under the air filter housing, requiring at least a 10-inch wrench extender (12" is better)
- remove another bracket that holds the battery in place, also fixed with a bolt located 10 inches down a tiny hole.
- wrestle the battery out past the main fuse/distribution box, which it barely fits past without breaking it
- repeat the process in reverse with new battery
Here's a picture [imgur.com]. It's a nightmare.
It's so bad I found several sites online describing the process [jaysonwhelpley.com] and mocking the designers of the vehicle. I understand that space is at a premium under the hood, but FFS, this is just bad.
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Another problem is that the battery is also much closer to the ground, so if you drive through high water after a rain, your batter gets wet. My mom had one of those cars, and that did happen.
As for replacing it without taking off the tire, sure if you have a garage with a lift. Try doing that 'hard-left' trick with the car up on a jack in the parking lot.
Also, one of my customers had a friend who had that engine blocking the oil filter insanity. That didn't go so well either.
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Nah, it's nothing new. Friend of mine when we were teens had a 70s compact car - a VW Scirocco, or maybe that replaced this one - where you had to pull the engine to change the oil filter. No joke. The guy on the assembly line could install the filter easily because the engine wasn't in the car yet. Ahh, 70s cars.
Cars keep getting better - whens the last time you fiddled with points (or, heck, even had a mechanical distributer). What's changed is now there's no room in the engine compartment - everything's in there as tight as can be, to put maximum space in the cabin. There's a procedure and a tool for everything, and often service is easy if you've had the specialty training, but it's no longer designed for the average driver to just eyeball it and figure it out, beyond the most routine stuff.
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Informative)
Car factory worker here. Welding and paint shop is mostly automated nowadays, but assembly is 99% manual. It's just not designed with reparability in mind. Or it is, but in the sense that repair shops and sellers are here in Europe normally the same business , and with nowadays margins you better let them charge a whole hour to change a bulb.
Thank them they still let you change a fuse...
And for robot “reachability”, it's normally the other way around. Industrial robots in car making are bulky things not meant to access small or hidden spots. For that, it's better a human being.
Re:Dupe (Score:4, Informative)
My Ford Falcon used to get low voltage. The cure was to whack the regulator with a tire iron.
No special smarts needed.
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Interesting)
To a certain extent that is true. I just replaced the tailight on my mustang and to disassemble most of the trunk.
However, in another case I watched two people try to get a PT Cruiser running on my street. They worked on it for two days before I went over. I said "you know, the car is trying to tell you what's wrong!" The check engine light was on.
You can flip the ignition switch ON, OFF three times and it will print the error code on the odometer. A quick Google search and I resolved the problem to be a bad oil pressure sensor. $20 for the sensor, $10 for a socket to fit it ad the car fired right up.
Improved, more comprehensive diagnostics make a lot of things easier on new cars.
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It's just that when your washing machine's motor fails after a year, or you need to replace your convection oven's fan seven times before it stops making a buzzing sound, you realize that it's about as much about cost-cutting as it is about efficiency and actual, material gains.
I don't see it that way - I think that Dr. George is missing out on the real difference in generations. It's not that there's a new generation that is mechanically unable or prevented by evil industrial designers from repairing old products. It's that there has been a fundamental shift in the equation of time and money for many younger (educated, employed) people in the first world.
One of the things I never considered when I was in high school/college but appreciated dearly as I got older was that absolutely every decision in one's leisure time (at any age) was a function of money vs. time. At all ages of life, you have by definition more than one of the other. When I was in high school and working at Burger King, I was more than happy to spend a whole Saturday afternoon disassembling and reassembling my third-hand SLR camera to get the advance lever working again rather than taking it to a camera shop. In my post-collegiate bachelor days I unquestioningly built new PCs from scratch rather than spending the $100 (or whatever it was) markup to buy an equivalent one from a white-box computer shop.
Today? I'm 40-ish with a well-paying but time consuming job, a wife (who also works at a well-paid full time job) and two young children to take care of. I own a lawnmower but would rather pay a neighbor kid to do it so I can use that equivalent precious time with my kids, or even (a rare treat) taking a nap. I could save a reasonable amount by changing my own oil and filters (screw you BMW and your requirement for ludicrously expensive synthetic oils) but I take it to an auto shop because I don't enjoy the process and I'd rather have that time back to do something else. Time is important to me these days, not so much money, and that informs all my decisions.
Long story short - leaving money aside, many people from older generations don't "get" the modern emphasis on - MBA joke coming here - "the money value of time." Someone who says "why on Earth do you need to read your e-mail after hours?" is probably going to have no understanding of why you wouldn't want to buy something new instead of taking the time to repair it. If you don't have the money to pay someone else, or even better actually like repairing things then regardless of generation you will take the time to do so, I'm sure. But if - for generational, money or whatever reason - you are accustomed to time being more important to you than money, why not pay a professional to repair something or buy a new one?
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Quite a few things are still relatively easy to fix these days. Contact error are still widespread, likely because they provide some kind of thinly camouflaged planned obsolescence. Then there are all those devices where battery replacement is not expected, but usually doable. Sure, you need a bit of experience and some tools, but that is not new or surprising. The most critical thing is however wanting to find out how to repair something.
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A few years back my friend went to get his BMW from my garage where he had left it for the winter only to find a flat tire waiting. I thought "no problem" we can just use the spare just as my father taught me. We pull the jack out that came with the car and attempted to jack the car up but the jack actually started to collapse under the weight of the car. At that point we gave up and called CAA and when the guy arrives says "why did you guys try to do this yourselves?" It seems the jack was mostly deco
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me tell you, as someone with a lot of experience fixing cars (most recently, pulled the engine and transmission from my '96 Volvo to fix a transmission input shaft leak), the fact that they aren't as easy to fix is not a problem. That's because they don't need to be fixed nearly as often. The old (make that "classic") musclecars from the 60's and 70's I grew up fixing, swapping engines, etc. needed something all the time -- points replaced, carburetors rebuilt, overhauls at 75,000 miles, brakes rebuilt every 15,000 miles, etc. You haven't lived until you have rebuilt a Quadrajet four barrel carb from 1975 and gotten all the little springs, metering rods, and gaskets back in correctly. Nowadays, except for oil changes, you can pretty much weld the hoods shut for the first 100,000 miles. And they run far better in every respect than the old,"fixable" ones. I do it as a hobby, but nope, I'll take the new cars any day. That Volvo engine pull will be my last. Same goes for electronics -- the old TV's, the "fixable" ones -- every few years it was down to the electronics stores for new tubes, if you could figure out which tube was bad, and didn't electrocute yourself on the high voltage supplies and capacitors in the process -- no thanks. Things are just better now -- if loss of fixability is the price, it's well worth it.
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I love my 2002 WRX but it is ridiculously more difficult to repair than my 1965 Ford. I just rebuilt the ford carburetor; there's hardly anything even similar that I can do that's nearly as simple to improve performance of the WRX computerized fuel injection system (beyond replacing spark plugs, hoses, and simple parts that are common to both generations of automobile -- headlights fall into that category I think; they're a bad benchmark for overall repair effort). I LOVE the car, don't get me wrong, but ease of repair is not a key selling point. In exchange, of course, we get much better gas mileage, performance, comfort, and safety to name a few -- I'm fine with the tradeoff, but it is real.
The counterpoint I have to the main article is that while people may not walk around with the ability to repair things, they do walk around with access to an insane amount of information to help them along. The number of youtube videos, bits of advice from message boards, and random web articles are really what keeps my Ford humming (and to a lesser extent the WRX), not to mention access to cheap parts shipped immediately. I think this generation will manage.
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I did the math at one point and realized it cost me money to change my own oil. The filters, oil and disposal cost me more than paying some one to do it.
Re: Dupe (Score:4, Insightful)
My car takes 6 quarts of SAE 5W20 - estimating a cost of $5.00/qt for semi-decent cheap oil, that is $30 right there. Add the $8 oil filter, and we're up to $38. Not counting my time, or costs of driving to purchase oil and dispose of it, we are now at almost $40.
I drive my car to the same shop, about 6 miles away from my house. In addition to the oil change, they top off the other fluids and check my brakes, hoses, belts, lights and even rotate my tires as part of a standard 'service visit'. All that for a 'package price' of $29.99. It was only $19.99 fifteen years ago, but cost have risen a little. The guy that owns the shop, and his small staff always pay attention to what they are doing, so I have had exactly zero major incidents with their quality of service.
I replaced the battery in my car recently and I ended up having to spend $20 on tools just to get to and remove the dead battery. The only reason I did that was because the shop was closed the week of Christmas and I didn't feel like bugging the owner.
Now, when it comes to electronics, I'm all over it. I've repaired a few televisions, my refrigerator, washing machines and several other electronic items around the house. Many smaller devices, however, seem to be designed to become basically scrap when they break.
Re: Dupe (Score:3, Insightful)
Why does everyone forget to include the cost of their time? Figure it out; you'll be surprised. You'll find that, eg, driving 5 extra miles to the store with the $10 savings isn't worth it, because that's 20 extra minutes (city driving). Unless you _honestly_ enjoy changing your oil, or you have a specific reason (eg, I once had an unusual car that the dealer didn't care to work on properly) then it's probably not worth your time.
Re: Dupe (Score:4, Insightful)
Because most people's leisure time has essentially zero cash value, particularly In small increments. Personal value can vary wildly on both sides of zero depending on how much you like/hate doing things to be self reliant and how much the bragging rights are worth to you.
Re: Dupe (Score:4, Insightful)
What you forget is that some workshops take shortcuts and use the cheapest possible oil and filter - if they even do the change.
Re: Dupe (Score:5, Informative)
There's your problem right there. Because you expect everything to be unfixable you assume replacing a bulb is beyond your capability. Fact is bulbs in cars are a darn sight easier to replace. ...
Incidentally... bullshit. I've got a modern (2008), Big Three car and to replace the headlight bulb, you literally have to remove the entire fascia from the car. Then you have to remove the headlight housing from the car. Then you have to excavate to extract the HID bulb from within the housing. This is nontrivial because you are working through a small hole to undo metal latches inside. Then you get to replace the actual bulb, which the oils on your skin can easily destroy. Finally, you reassemble the entire front-end of your car.
I've done it. But it's nowhere near as easy as my first car (a 1985 model, same manufacturer) was. That was trivial.
All of my corner lights and brake lights are trivial, but the headlights... nasty. This is simply because of all of the complex sculpted front-end structure. When cars were simple box shapes, it was easy.
Re: Dupe (Score:4, Insightful)
My 2001 Volvo involves opening the hood, unscrewing the seal on the back of the headlamp, and replacing the $5 bulb. There are options if you care about ease of service and repair, you just have to actually consider that aspect when purchasing something, or get lucky. Otherwise you may well get stuck with something designed to be a revenue generator for dealer repair shops. (or appliances designed to be disposable as the case may be)
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I mean, why should we buy phones that we can't change the battery in the first place?
Because people get distracted by the new shiny, and forgot to look...
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Or are the kind of people who take their bike to the shop to have the tire replaced for them anyway, so why would they care how difficult it is without the proper tools?
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Insightful)
That you see no value in what kids can fix doesn't mean that it's worthless. I'd guess that when my father was a teen and continually "fixing" his car, his parents complained that he didn't know how to "fix" the horse. As he was raised on a farm to parents born before farm machinery was common (as in I doubt there was much machinery in farming in IN in the 1880s, but haven't researched it), so fixing farm equipment is a lower priority than maintaining the animals which powered the farm implements.
Same complaint, new generation.
Plus, my observation is that when it costs $100 to fix an item, but $90 to buy the same thing new, why would you fix it? Yes, that bites you when it costs $90 to fix it and $100 to buy it and you can't fix it, but that's rare. Things are disposable because the grandparents running the corporations that make the shit design it to be unfixable. Then complain when their grandchildren can't fix it.
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Do tell where steam engines (aside from turbines in ships and power plants) are used in our society. I did not say we were taught useless skills.
Fine, do you know how to churn your own butter or butcher your own chickens? My grandfather did all of these things, but my dad (who is still a farmer) has no idea how to do either. And even if you are one of the rare ones who knows how to do those things, I doubt almost all of your generation can.
What your generation forgot about growing your own food is in the same league as what our generation has forgot about how to fix our own appliances.
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Funny)
Well, churning your own butter is easy. Just accidentally forget about the cream you were beating in your mixer. Done that before.
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missing the point, talking about people's ablities with the things they have and use.
(yes, hunt and dress kill. butter and cheese no)
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Fine, do you know how to churn your own butter or butcher your own chickens? My grandfather did all of these things, but my dad (who is still a farmer) has no idea how to do either. And even if you are one of the rare ones who knows how to do those things, I doubt almost all of your generation can.
I don't mean to be a jerk about this, but THESE are the two things you bring out regarding examples of difficult things your dad couldn't figure out how to do??
Churning butter only takes cream and agitation. You can do it in a mixer. You can even do it in a sealed jar just by shaking (though it will take longer). Eventually the proteins will separate from the whey, and you just form them into a glob, squeeze it out, and you have butter. That's it. There's no "secret" to churning butter.
As for "butc
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I did not say we were taught useless skills.
Yes, you did. You indicated that we don't know how to fix things our parents think we should fix. My father's parents were born before IC engines. So people like them would be more likely to know a steam engine than gas or diesel engines. Since this was about "grandparents", I can use them as an example, right? Even though they died in the '40s. They are still my grandparents. My father was all about IC engines, since he grew up in the '40s, where road racing and cruising got it's start. So every fe
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Interesting)
wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit
I know plenty of people over 50 who cannot "fix shit", and I know plenty of people under 30 who can. I doubt that either you, or the professor in the article, has any actual data to backup your assertion. Since at least the time of Socrates, every generation has thought that their kids were dumber than they were, and civilization was doomed. Whatever.
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My "actual data" would of course entail my relatives and friends, who indeed can "fix shit", while the current generation is mostly useless in that regard. Can't solder, can't crimp, can't change an oil filter or even headlight bulb, can't measure nor cut nor fasten lumber, etc. etc.
And for every millennial who can't change an oil filter or fasten lumber there is a 50 year old who can't program their digital clock or reconfigure their new cellphone without waiting for their kids to come home for the holidays. Different generations have different skills, and they usually align with the skills that were useful to them in their early life.
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My "actual data" would of course entail my relatives and friends, who indeed can "fix shit", while the current generation is mostly useless in that regard. Can't solder, can't crimp, can't change an oil filter or even headlight bulb, can't measure nor cut nor fasten lumber, etc. etc.
"Kids these days couldn't adjust the valves on an engine to save their lives. By the way, kid, could you come by and fix my PC sometime, it's slow again."
What counts as a useful life skill changes slowly over time. What used to be skills to let you make cool stuff on the cheap from discards is now a mostly-useless expensive hobby.
Still, to some extent I agree with you. There's so little these days providing incentive to be "handy" for kids in day-to-day life that many just don't learn the basics, and cou
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wrong, we over 50 were taught to fix shit, starting at age 10 in my case.
I wasn't taught anything. I started to disassemble things early on. That was satisfying for about a year. Then I started trying to reassemble what I disassembled. Often things that were broken started working after me reassembling things and replacing broken parts.
When I was 8 my aunt gave me a broken radio. I discovered disco and a few years later punk and electronika. When I was 10 a neighbour gave me a broken TV, and a few weeks later a broken shortwave receiver. I was watching SSTV from half a world aw
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I made a hobby and career in electronics.
Early VCR's were expensive and repairable. You could buy parts such as pinch rollers, tape guides, video drums, etc. A $30 video head and a couple hours labor for replacement and full alignment would run close to $100 ( back when shop rates were ~35/hr.
VCR's became sub $100 devices and service people gave a few estimates and went out of business.
A common failure with microwave ovens is moisture gets into the keypad or LCD resulting in the conductive paint or ribbon failure. A timer can be had for over the price of a new oven. Even with free labor, it's cheaper to replace. Labor isn't free.
Me, I'm still in electronics, but no longer in consumer throw away junk. I service semiconductor equipment. $1-5 million equipment is still worth repairing. They don't let noobs practice on it though. Need other verifiable training and experience to even get considered.
There are tons of entry level positions that pay fast food rates. Look at ads for those wanting someone to fix smart phones. Assembly people working under microscopes get very little pay as it competes with overseas sweatshops.
Getting past that into a living wage is a little tougher.
Those with a student loan simply can't afford to even consider the field. About the only way in if you are interested is a few years in the military for both training and hands on in something besides entry level.
Straight electronics is easy to understand. not being a coder and having to rig up a JTAG connection to troubleshoot something that is undocumented is the pits. For an example of this pick up any used VOIP adaptor from the used market and try to unlock it. Unless you are really interested in learning to set up a server, wireshark, and possibly JTAG to get past a custom provisioned adapter is a total waste of time. There is no money to be made to offset the time investment in learning it. A New unlocked ATA can be had for under $50.
Paying u fix it fileds are NOT in consumer electronics. They are in HVAC, Plant maintenance, PLC programming, CNG, and other related fields. People will not pay much to repair the broken screen on a used phone. People will be desperate to get the spring replaced on the garrage door or heat pump fixed. Learn the going rates in the fileds. You are not going to pay for Obamacare and build a retirement nest egg fixing cell phones and flatscreen tv's.
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This story is a dupe from my grandfather's generation, who cried about the same thing.
That's because it has gotten worse. My grandparents used to fix everything and keep using it until it was thoroughly broken. I still have a bunch of my grandfather's tools some of which came from my great grandfather and predate WWI. My parents's generation started to get used to the idea of disposability that came with the Americans after WWII and I have experienced how disposability became the norm. It does not even seem to occur to most people these days that things can be fixed. I have seen people dispose of perfectly usable smartphones because of an easily fixable software issue and bin laptops that they could have gotten several more years of use out of by installing an SSD and some extra RAM for a fraction of what a new laptop wold have cost (and keep in mind that the most demanding work most of these laptops ever do is run MS Word). The list goes on, and on, and on,.... And don't even get me started on plastic packaging, it's absolutely revolting. I will never understand why every single one of the cookies in a bag of American cookies has to come in a plastic bag of it's own and I don't remember Bounty bars tasting any worse when they came wrapped in paper.
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Interesting)
Some things can be fixed but would you want to? My previous oven got replaced because it's failure mode was to go into it's cleaning cycle. I could have replaced the faulty control board but I didn't really want to. I didn't want another one of THOSE control boards nor did I want a same brand replacement.
I didn't want to wait for this "fixed" item to eventually burn my house down.
OTOH, many other things are so cheap that they are not worth the parts and labor it would take to fix them.
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It all comes down to economic efficiency. Manufacturing costs have plummeted while labor costs have skyrocketed, so it's not a productive use of one's time to repair. Time is expensive, stuff is cheap.
Repair isn't the only skill that's suffered; we've forgotten how to farm, forgotten how to weave our own clothing, forgotten how to do many things that were required of a household a century or two ago. It's also why we get connected halfway around the world for customer service and don't get our fuel pumped and windshield washed by a whistling attendant.
Whether this is ultimately good or bad depends on your point of view, but unless we run short of raw materials, drive up costs via pollution taxes, or see an economic meltdown in the west it's not likely to change course. Rising wages in China and other industrial companies will only do so much before factories switch to robot labor.
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I have seen people dispose of perfectly usable smartphones because of an easily fixable software issue and bin laptops that they could have gotten several more years of use out of
Our economy depends on these people.
Re:Dupe (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh really? Broken-window fallacy much? Think of what our economy could do if these people spent that laptop cash on something better...
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I think there is an aspect to this that is being missed to some degree. Yes, it is true that repairing a device with surface mount components the size of dust by hand is a lost cause. It is true that manufacturers build their products in ways that makes opening them impossible or nearly so, and it is true that it is often cheaper to replace something than repair. None of that is going to change.
But off to the side, tons of people are making their own stuff with Arduino/Pi/etc.etc. People are learning about interfacing with the real world through sensors and adjusting it, or adjusting to it, with any number of methods. The barriers to these types of projects have dropped immensely recently and there are lots of people who take that broken toaster oven, and totally repurpose it as a soldering oven.
So, perhaps people _are_ less likely to try to fix things than they were decades ago -- instead, a great number are learning how to _design_ their own rather sophisticated stuff. Grandpa may have been able to repair his tractor, but his grandkid can automate it to minimize overlap when out tilling the fields saving diesel, time, topsoil, and mechanical wear/tear. The former skill is valuable, but the current skill is valuable in its own way.
Except that now (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Except that now (Score:5, Informative)
when you open the latest gadget, it's black boxes, nothing that you can see working, or replace without just desoldering a chip.
Prof George knows this of course:
"All of these things in our home do seem to work most of the time and because they don't break we just get used to them. They have almost become like Black Boxes which never die. And when they do we throw them away and buy something new."
The Daily Telegraph, knowing its readership (traditionally rather conservative and not exactly in the first flush of their youth) has chosen to emphasise the 'young people are lost generation' angle, which is reflected in the summary. But the message she's putting across in the Christmas Lectures is much more positive - the talks are intended for a general audience, especially kids, and she wants to get them excited about using everyday technology in creative ways, in the spirit of the Maker community.
Nice article here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/n... [independent.co.uk]
If you have a UK IP address or VPN, the Lectures are available here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programme... [bbc.co.uk]
They're part of a series goes back to the time of Faraday, and has featured many eminent scientists (including several Nobel laureates). They've just been broadcast on national TV, as they have been since the 60s (I suspect quite a few of us who ended up being scientists in the UK got early inspiration from one or more of these lectures).
Its a cost decision (Score:5, Insightful)
I have detailed technical knowledge. However my time is not worth fixing every small gadget that breaks. If I break a blender, its simply not worth me sourcing parts, waiting, and then spending an hour repairing it.
Re:Its a cost decision (Score:5, Insightful)
Absolutely. With manufacturing costs crazy low, fixing things is a huge waste of time and effort *unless* you really enjoy having brought something back to life, in which case, good for you! From a straight economic decision, why should people want to spend time learning to be good at fixing things instead of using that time to learn other productive skills?
Someone needs to be introduced to the concept of "opportunity cost".
Re:Its a cost decision (Score:5, Insightful)
Bollocks.
The goblet connector on my blender sheared. I could have gone out and bought a replacement blender for €150. Instead I ordered a part online for €9.50 which arrived two days later and took ten minutes to fit. If the motor had failed, I would probably have bought a new blender (of a different make).
The skill is in knowing when it is worth fixing and when it is better to replace. That's the skill which is being lost. Actually doing the fix is usually relatively straightforward.
Re:Its a cost decision (Score:5, Informative)
Some brands are simply more maintainable than others.
Spare parts may be readily available. This isn't true universally. Most brands are cheap crap that are intended to be disposable. Ensuring that the product has a long useful life isn't even a consideration.
If longevity is something you care about then that's an informed choice you have to make at the time of purchase.
Re:Its a cost decision (Score:5, Insightful)
You could have also bought a $5 blender from the local thrift store.
Re: Its a cost decision (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not about cost. It's about design. They used to build things to last. They'll build products with improper snubbing. They know that the back emf will eventually burn out the IC and they depend on it. It lowers cost and means you buy a new electric carving knife every couple of years.
Re: (Score:3)
Absolutely incorrect. I have an old sewing machine that was my great grandmother's. It still works perfectly. It is old enough that the sticker inside gives a 5 digit phone number for the service center.
It's construction is heavy to say the least. 'value engineering' (read planned obsolescence) hadn't been invented yet. For quite a while after it was invented it was considered a sign of a shoddy company that is not to be trusted. But the frog in much closer to boiling now.
Any idea what the inflation adjusted cost of that thing would be today? That would be very telling, and what do you get for that money today I guess.
Re: Its a cost decision (Score:5, Informative)
Have you priced a Kirby lately?
Re: (Score:3)
Not to mention obsolescence. Do you really want to fix the connection from that lcd screen to the dsp in that 512 Meg XP pentiumM laptop? My fathers bulky 720p mirror based TV is not CRT yet isn't flat screen either circa 2003 went out. It would cost $400 to fix. Worth it over a newer 1080p? No
Re: (Score:3)
Note to capitalists: business model (Score:3)
Not everything needs to be optimized to a fare-thee-well, with "an app for that".
Re:Note to capitalists: business model (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you ignore this idiot.
When your CUSTOMERS start complaining about this sort of thing, you do something about it.
When a professor somewhere complains that your customers are doing it wrong by buying things that they want then tossing them when they break, you don't waste time worrying about it.
Note that any redesign of most devices to make them more repairable will almost certainly make them more expensive to buy in the first place. Whether you can make something that is repairable and lower cost over the life of the device (as opposed to buying cheaper and replacing instead of repairing) is debatable.
Re:Note to capitalists: business model (Score:5, Interesting)
ROTFL, written like a good little consumer. The koolaid is strong in this one ;)
There is VERY little debate, it is often no more expensive to make something repairable, and thats not even the professors complain (or a good attempt at a strawman..), their complaint is that consumers are not bothering to even try and fix or have things fixed because they dont know how or that it is possible.
ie: they are well trained little consumers also.
Of course it is good for the companies selling items, but it is pretty damn stupid from ANY other point of view.
Integrated this, integrated that (Score:5, Insightful)
Entry-level audio gear, for instance, tends to use integrated amplifiers -- no longer can you fix easily fix a blown power transistor, as you could with older gear. Same thing with cars -- adjusting the timing on a car was sort of a rite of passage for many, but it's hardly feasible on a new car with computer-controlled everything.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Indeed, reliability on modern electronics is pretty amazing; it's certainly not a "worse" situation than before, just...different.
Re:Integrated this, integrated that (Score:5, Insightful)
I second that and would also emphase that many gadgets are made unfixable on purpose: glued in such a way that they would break if You try to open them, outside screws with non conventional head types. These are not cost reduction measures but rather anti-tamper protections.
Re:Integrated this, integrated that (Score:5, Interesting)
These are not cost reduction measures but rather anti-tamper protections.
Yes and no. In some cases you may be correct, but when I worked in consumer electronics, the devices were glued because it was cheaper and screws would have required us to use a thicker care just so there was space for the screws.
And 99.9% of people would just throw it away if it failed, so why worry about it?
Re:Integrated this, integrated that (Score:5, Funny)
UUURRRRGHHH Points...... KILL ME NOW!
The points system is mechanically simple. It is also one of THE most horrible systems in the world to get working nicely. I have never been a smoker but points are a reason I always kept a packet of tally-ho cigarette papers. You put the paper in the point and then slowly advance then engine till you can pull the paper out. Ok that is where you are going to get your spark. Ok now that is 70 degrees out, lets take the whole thing apart and start again......
First thing I do on any restoration project is unscrew the points assembly, wash it, dry it, spray it with a lubricant, put it in a zip lock bag. And then replace it with an electronic ignition system.
fixing modern gadget (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh sure - if a tiny grain capacitor without marking is failing - I bet the author can't even de-solder it
find the same part and solder it back on
same with BGA chip - ever try desolder a 400 balls BGA chip in your gadget and try to find that chip in your radio shack?
Re: (Score:3)
actually common cause of monitor problems now is with capacitors that can be replaced.
One way to look at it (Score:3)
When your toaster costs 20 dollars, how long can it take to take it apart, find the fault and put it together again, before it becomes a huge waste of time?
Or am I just the only one who values his free time? I'll gladly put in new flooring or do some basic plumbing or electricity work, if it saves me the hundreds of dollars a professional would cost, especially when him just driving here costs me a hundred per default. However, many appliances and gadgets cost little enough and can be ordered online... why should I waste my time on that?
Also, electronics are not my thing. So what doesn't have electronics in them?
Seriously, I can't know about each and every niche in life... I know how to forge knives and carve longbows already... do you expect me to make my own shoes as well?
Yeah, sure (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why there are no forums full of information of how to replace the screen on your phone or tablet. This is why ifixit.com doesn't exist. This is why you can't order OBD scanners for your car.
It's only a minority of people who are skilled and interested enough to fix things. But that's always been so. It's just that now it's typically cheaper to replace broken things (well, not cars) than call in someone who can fix them, because labor costs for repair are so high compared to initial manufacturing costs.
Re: (Score:3)
Who here can fix a motherboard on a washer or dryer? anyone?
That depends on what component is fried. A dried up or blown electrolytic capacitor, no problem. Some small poorly marked discrete component, might be tough to figure out the proper capacitance (or whatever). Some mystery IC, good luck.
The problem isn't the physical act of replacing the component (except in size constrained devices, like smartphones). The problem is identifying the failed component.
Re:Yeah, sure (Score:5, Interesting)
Who here can fix a motherboard on a washer or dryer? anyone?
The high cost of repairs on those things is exactly why I specifically bought a Speed Queen with a mechanical timer. So some of us still pay a little more for repair-ability :)
maybe its not the kids (Score:5, Insightful)
some modern electronic gagets can not be fixed (Score:3)
Cultural Shift (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not age-specific (Score:3)
Also (Score:5, Funny)
This generation doesn't know how to shoe horses. And they're terrible with cave drawings.
Delicate electronics (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a Samsung computer monitor that isn't properly detected if I use the DVI cable, although the VGA cable works fine. This prevents Mac OS from detecting the monitor, and confuses Windows. (The technical details: it's not transmitting EDID over the DVI connection.)
The quick fix for Windows worked for a while, but a driver update changed how things work and would be constantly confused by that monitor. The proper fix requires opening the monitor, using a multimeter to find what's wrong with the DVI connector, and fixing or replacing it. This is not something you can do on a weekend, as opposed to fixing a larger appliance.
The problem isn't around knowledge, but that it requires equipment not expected to be in a normal home. A house can have tools available to fix large mechanical objects, but not extremely delicate electronics that require an electron scanning microscope to properly fix. The repair costs for devices usually indicate that the whole device has gone bad as opposed to an easily swapped component, meaning the manufacturers also have trouble getting things to work as well.
Re: (Score:3)
Best thread summary of the year (OK, so the year is still young...)
Seriously though, most houses will have a toolbox with sufficient "stuff" to at least make a stab at fixing mechanical parts (Hammer, screwdriver, awl, pliers). For electrical items, a bit more "stuff" is needed (soldering iron, multimeter), but still there are enough people interested that it can in the house.
Electronics, now is basically "when it breaks, it's trash" (although there are groups of people who are dedicated to restoring 1990s
Oh, pleeez. (Score:5, Interesting)
So when my laptop fries up I can't repair it with my Snap-On collection of wrenches. So, when something like a laptop fries, I go buy another one. I never buy new - I buy used ones for cheap. I'm not going to fix my laptop or microwave oven or telephone. To imply that I should is stupid.
If that kind of throw-away society is suboptimal for the professor, then the problem is the *throw-away society*, not some deskilling operation.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
bullshit. (Score:3)
My son, however, takes big flat screen TVs from the electronics recyclers and tries to fix them. Usually it's a half dozen or so capacitors on the power supply card... Then he sells them locally. He also takes cheap garage sale android phones and has a good fix rate resoldering the micro-usb connectors...
Some kids are entrepreneurial.
They are not supposed to (Score:3, Insightful)
If not outright forbidden to do so. We live in a time where not only things get complicated enough that you'd need to study everything you want to fix for a while before you could even start finding out what's broken, more often than not some legalese bullshit is thrown between your legs where you may not even start working on something you allegedly bought. You see, back in my days we did something funny with the stuff we bought: We "owned" it. It meant that we could do whatever we damn well please with the stuff we bought. No such luck anymore, the more technology your gadgets contain and the more gimmicky it is, the higher the chance that you must not do anything but use it in whatever fashion the creator wants you to. No tinkering, no "fixing", no improving, and sure as HELL no talking about doing any of that!
Most technical appliances are actually defect at delivery. They refuse to do what you want, like, say, you buy a new game console and it doesn't play whatever you want it to play, despite the technical capability. You must now not go and fix the defect so it would do what you want it to do. In some countries it's even already an offense that could cost you a nasty fine or even land you in jail to fix your broken device. Let alone do it for others.
Circumnavigate Single Handed on a Boat (Score:3)
If you survive, you'll be a grand master fix it person.
Labor versus cost of parts (Score:3)
If you have a nonworking computer in your car, you don't pay someone to spend hours looking at the circuit board. You get another one at the junk yard for $100 pulled off of a wrecked car, toss it in, and see if it works. You don't care why something doesn't work, just that it doesn't work.
Almost all electronics can be fixed, but it should only be done when it makes economic sense. Otherwise, the electronics should be disposed of properly, hopefully recycled.
If it doesn't make economic sense to fix an electronic device, then young people should be spending their time outside playing, or if they're older, getting more exercise.
We have something in our society called division of labor. Everybody depends upon everybody else to survive, but if we're all doing what we're best at then our leisure time is maximized. [Obviously that is how an ideal society would function and we have a long way to go.]
Just fixed my washing machine (Score:3)
To be honest, my first thought was this: Age of machine + cost of repair vs cost of new machine and found it wasn't worth getting a repairman out here, probably once to figure out what's wrong and once to fix and it wasn't worth the struggle to deliver 70kg to a repair shop and return it afterwards. I almost ordered a new one but then I figured, what the hell I could maybe manage to swap a broken transmission belt so I unscrewed the back lid. Turns out it had just jumped off from years of spinning, didn't even need a replacement part. Simple mechanical devices where a filter is clogged or the machinery needs oil is worth a look. Flaky electronics on the other hand, forget about it. It's mostly one big integrated lump of circuits that either works or it doesn't. And small, cheap or old appliances just aren't worth the effort as fixing cheap plastic or a bad solder might only last a short while longer as where there's one fault there's probably more poor QA.
People used to mend socks because cloth was really expensive and involved a lot of manual processes to make. Today I can get a year's supply from an hour's wages so why bother? Yeah I'm less self-sufficient but let's face it without the grocery store I'd starve so if it comes down to the basics it's not all that essential. In fact mostly useless if the electricity is dead. So if having those skills don't do me much good today and don't do me much good in the post-zombie apocalypse so why would I do it? It'd be a hobby. Nothing wrong with having hobbies, but they're a leisure activity that you do if you feel like it. For me that sounds a lot like maintenance and repair, which I hate in general. I hate housekeeping and I hate changing broken light bulbs just to maintain the status quo. Making broken shit work(ish) sounds like work, not fun.
Make something worth fixing (Score:3)
Trouble is, a lot of today's appliances aren't worth fixing. I junked a blender recently. Problem? plastic coupling between the motor and the blades. What's that you say? Machine a new one out of metal? OK maybe... if the motor didn't already spark and smell like ozone when making one smoothie. No, crushing ice was not pushing this thing. It was specifically advertised as being OK with that. It was just. A piece. Of crap. Now a BlendTec, that'd be worth servicing... but even the consumer version is $400.00. Many of us can't afford that, or we rationalize the 5-year disposable $40 blender as potentially cheaper even though trashing things is somehow less satisfying. There is no pride in ownership when there's no pride in manufacturing. This is by design. The companies don't want people fixing things. Everybody knows it.
Maybe that's why the younger generation is more interested in making. If companies won't put pride in manufacturing, maybe individuals will.
It all works so well though (Score:3)
If I were to bike any great distance there was a good chance that I would need to at least fiddle my bike a bit or maybe even fix it. Definitely I had to regularly adjust and fix my bike. But my nieces and nephews bikes just go on and on working just fine. So in that extremely infrequent occasion when it needs some work they just have the bike shop do it (which would have cost too much in my childhood).
My first computer which was a VIC-20 didn't even come with storage when I got it. Thus any program I wanted I typed in, played with, and when the computer was turned off it vanished. Eventually I got a tape drive and was a marvel. The floppy drive for my C64 was completely over the top.
Then with the first PC we all had to fiddle with the config.sys to squeeze that extra few K that was needed for some program or a sound driver needed for another.
So all these experiences have turned me into somewhat of a technological hill-billy. I am perfectly happy to resolder a failed headphone jack in my laptop or replace a capacitor in a failed monitor. I will make the programs I want using languages ranging from Python to C++ and have zero problems creating fantastically strong replacement parts with just invented composites based on such products as JB Weld. My electric razor had a great cutting mechanism but the battery just wasn't good enough. So rebuilt it using a pair of 18650s and a heat sync to help defend the now slightly overworked DC motor. It isn't a proper Christmas nativity if the star isn't a green laser pointer controlled by an arduino and some 9g servos.
So in my world fixing things, improving things, salvaging things, and making things better are all an overlapping concept. I rented a car this weekend and it was a pile of crap GMC with OnStar. It was all I could do to stop myself from going under the hood to rip the onstar clean out of whatever sewage pit they kept it in and just reinstall it moments before returning the car.
Most of the people around me though stare at me funny when I rip apart an old all-in-one printer in 5 minutes so that I can extract those excellent 10mm rods. Or when I can take a faulty iPhone apart in a restaurant after the person complains of only ever getting 1 signal dot anymore and just wiggling the antenna wire returning them to 5 dot nirvana. As I am simply not taken aback by faulty gadgets or machines, yet I see many people use a cracked screen as an excuse for a phone upgrade.
But this is not just a younger generation thing. I think in the generation before me it was just as bad. They simply didn't have the tools to fix things like their reel to reel tape machines and things broke so fast that it pretty much wasn't worth the effort to fix them. A typical 1970s car that came with any features usually lost those features one by one very quickly. I can remember many cars from my early childhood where the power windows were dead, heater was dead, brakes made funny noises, the car backfired, the car wouldn't shut down when the key was turned off, etc. And these were cars that were only a few years old. But the problem wasn't something that a little fiddle could fix. These were fundamental problems such as all the wiring being wildly susceptible to corrosion; resulting in the car being beyond any reasonable repair. This too resulted in a generation of people who were largely incapable of fixing things.
But lastly it is almost certainly economics. In the 70s things were changing so quickly that in many cases it was better not to fix it but to buy the new and improved version. Now it might not be worth the time and money to fix things. I have collected a bunch of nice tools and skills for fixing things. I have various glues and epoxies. I have nearly every conceivable small screwdriver. I have soldering stations. But I also have so many years of experience
Kinda - kinda not (Score:3)
What I've found is that there are a lot of people who right off hand know how to do things these days. HOWEVER, for those actually wiling to try, the internet (and mostly Youtube) has generated a ton of reference material to learn how to do all sorts of things.
Replace an element on my water heater? Youtubed it.
Replace the fan motor for the AC in my car? Youtube.
Install an LGA771 processor in a LGA775 motherboard? Youtube.
Tap an existing power outlet to wire in an overhead light and switch to my garage? Youtube.
As I said - most people don't just know how to do as much as they used to - but if you have any desire whatsoever to LEARN it's a great time to be alive.
Re:Then Prof George demanded everyone leave his la (Score:4, Informative)
Since Prof George is (a) under 40 and (b) not a 'he', that seems rather unlikely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're the second person to make this mistake in the thread.
"Danielle". Not "Daniel."
ie, a woman.
Interesting bias. A professor of engineering has to be a man, right?
Re: (Score:3)
You're the second person to make this mistake in the thread. "Danielle". Not "Daniel." ie, a woman. Interesting bias. A professor of engineering has to be a man, right?
Well English doesn't have an indeterminate gender, you could use "it" or singular "they" but it sounds awful.
"A person walks into a bar. He orders a drink." - Male
"A person walks into a bar. She orders a drink." - Female
"A person walks into a bar. It orders a drink." - Lt. Commander Data
"A person walks into a bar. They orders a drink." - Gollum
"Messa walks into a bar. Messa orders a drink." - Jar Jar
So if you haven't bothered to check because honestly what's between their legs is totally irrelevant to the c
Re: (Score:3)
"hey've rented and ARE NOT ALLOWED TO FIX THINGS! If you're not allowed even to put holes in the wall"
LOL, you think it's better in a condo!?? You "own" that, but can't do squat!